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Bootscooter View Drop Down
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Posts: 1094 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: R Speculation
    Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 4:30pm
Interesting this and I'm learning lots - AIUI the optimum performance would be for a plastic sail on a carbon stick that are both tuned to the specific size and weight of the individual sailor, as per the Finn, but for a sail that will set properly on a carbon stick that is adjustable and responsive to a variety of sized and weighted sailors then a white sail provides the best compromise.

Have I got it right?
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Posts: 247 		Post Options Post Options   Quote hum3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by yellowwelly

Hum- no axe to grind on this...
 
Thanks - good post, and clarifies you previous posts. I don't have the expertise to say what the 'best' sail solution is, have never really sailed single handers, and was also surprised that dacron was the current choice.
 
However, given the flexibility (no pun indended) they're asking from the rig - three sizes, unstayed, wide weight range, I can well believe that Dacron is the way to go. 
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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Posts: 2003 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 4:38pm
Originally posted by Bootscooter

Have I got it right?

That is what the information presented here is telling you.  However there is plenty of sails out there run on carbon masts with mylar/plastic sails.

Tell me, those highly tuneable Merlin sails, with all that complex sail control (far too technical for most of us), what material do they run with for their mainsails?   Talking a 'Aero'- isn't speed Aeroweb plastic?

Confused...?  Confused
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Bootscooter View Drop Down
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Posts: 1094 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 4:47pm
But aren't those Merlin sails (generally) ordered from a loft that'll tweek the shape to match your mast and/or your weight, produced on a (relatively) individual basis, rather than mass-produced one-size-fits-all?
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Posts: 169 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Telltale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 4:57pm
I think that it would be perfectly possible to match mylar sail and carbon mast with tweaking. after all the bend characteristics would be infinitely variable by tapering the mast or increasing wall thickness.
However, given the cost of the package I suspect that parallel tube and uniform thickness would be a much more cost effective basis for the rig.
What is much more difficult would be matching the sail to the characteristics of the chosen mast!

Do we know what the mast looks like?
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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Posts: 2003 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 5:01pm
Originally posted by Bootscooter

rather than mass-produced one-size-fits-all?

don't forget this isn't a one size fits all product either Boots.... there are three rigs with associated demographic/bodymetric targets in mind.

anyway, maybe a new thread on masts and sails.... this is an interesting discussion, but something that applies beyond the scope of just one pre-production prototype at the Dinghy Ex.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 5:02pm
Merlins had a stayed mast last time I looked Big smile

I think Martin has answered this fairly and openly, even offering the sailmakers phone numbers. This is I assume meant to be a mass market boat with sails that last for a decent amount of time and a mast that covers a wide wind range. Surely the most important thing is that there are two modern designs out there that can fill a gap that seems to be held by a disinterested producer. 

There was a real buzz around this show and the car parks were full much earlier than recent years. After a dreadful few years of recession hats off and praise to anyone who has invested time and effort developing:-

- Any prior designs with new materials 

- The Vortex CA for putting their own money down to make new moulds for a boat that offers something unique for fledgling helm trapeze sailors

- Devoti for investing in doing lots of pretty clear carbon boats and for a genuinely new, good value and interesting singlehander

- RS for investing in another genuinely new, good value and interesting singlehander



Edited by SimonW99 - 04 Mar 14 at 5:05pm
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 5:13pm
from a different thread

Originally posted by iGRF

They never cease to amaze me, defence of the in defendable and even when someone builds a decent new down to weight boat at a ridiculously affordable price they start wittering on about the sail not being poxy mylar..

"Shut up bitches...

You're lucky anyone's building anything at all for your sad asses."

Would be my marketing response, only in bolder type..
Snow Equipment Deals    New Core Kite website
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 10:56pm
Now that Martin has said that the boat is not aimed as a Laser killer, my remarks are pretty much irrelevant. I'm glad that RS have taken that angle, 'cause (as noted earlier) I have a LOT of respect for the company. But if I can just reply to those who replied to me;

Re "Their priority is their share holders just like any other company. The market will have to look after itself." 

IMHO after having spent years in the industry, companies that produce gear for sports such as sailing are not "just like any other company" because volunteers to run the sport, they have no market. To me, when your business is reliant on volunteers who are working for the good of the sport, it's not just only reasonable to consider their interests and points of view, but good long-term business sense which is often lacking in the marine industry (witness the Laser situation which has lead to class meetings in which boycotts are being discussed).

Re "Sailing in the UK has never been about the situation Chris 249 describes. People sail the boats they want to, not the boats they are told to, except for one pretty small area of the sport, the Olympic Pathway. If people want to sail a boat that isn't the Laser, then why shouldn't they, and why shouldn't some design a boat for them to choose if they wish? .....Either way, RS have the perfect right to design and market the boat, rather than think, oh, we mustn't, we might upset the Laser juggernaut."

I wasn't trying to say that people cannot sail or design what they like, merely that it may be better if the sport's wider interests were deeply considered when new classes were introduced.

Of course people have the right to sail what they want. We also have the right to ignore beginners or scare them off the course (subject to the rules) rather than coaching them and giving them RoW when they make mistakes. We have the right to not volunteer to do the class and club work that keeps the whole sport alive. We have the right to vote for class and club rule changes out of pure self-interest rather than the interests of the wider scene. But we don't normally do such things because we feel a responsibility for the sport. Many people acted the same way when dinghy sailors signed petitions against the dumping of the Olympic cat.

Considering whether the introduction of a new class is good for the sport as a whole is simply another example of the same thing, isn't it? 

Re "I think that that is like arguing that wooden tennis rackets and hockey sticks should be retained. The laser hull per se is still a slippery shape, but has been used as a cash cow for so many years and has had no evolution. Merlin Rockets would be dead without evolution and just look at them now. IF Laser had developed a Laser +  and moved to a carbon rig and a more modern sail shape a few years ago and continued to market the boat and show some interest in the sport, then the boat would have more relevance for the future. They important thing for sailing (which is in decline) is to attract younger people to the sport and they are attracted to modern things. Laser could also have re engineered the infamous Transom lip which catches the mainsheet. Purist may argue that good technique stops that, but why make it difficult? How many people have been put off laser sailing because they had a bad gybe experience?"

I'm not arguing against some mods to the Laser and yes, a retrofitted corner-clearer would be a great idea (so would deck pads and a carbon mast, I'm not sure about mylar) and making boats easier to sail is great. But the introduction of new technology and classes is very much a double-edged sword. The worldwide cat and windsurfer sectors arguably hurt themselves very badly by repeatedly making classes obsolete. Tennis, BTW, has been used as an example where technological improvements have harmed the sport, although I'm not aware of the current picture.

As far as attracting kids goes, the Laser seems to be very good at that from where I sit, looking at the numbers and at the kids and also knowing many of the top teens in the 29ers etc.

Re "But you mention Optis in the same breath as Laser. I think the situation is quite different here with a whole range of manufacturers making boats"

The similarity between the Opti and the Laser was that they are the two biggest classes and that for that reason, both have been the target for new classes, in a way that (say) OKs, 505s and Cadets have not been.
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mongrel View Drop Down
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Posts: 304 		Post Options Post Options   Quote mongrel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 7:44am
You've missed your bit about cycling being stuck in the 1930s Wink
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