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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Cirrus Icon Development
    Posted: 13 Dec 10 at 9:14am
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by Russell Moore

Chris, sorry about the comparison post re NS v Tasar, this is what happens when you, 1, Rely on a biased report from an NS sailor who was there, and 2, Don't check the actual results yourself, I feel most humbled..

No worries, Russell!

I'm interested partly because the comparative performance does seem to have changed - go back a while on this forum and I was saying that the Tasar had no hope against the NS myself. Embarrassed

Is that to do with the standard of sailors, or the Tasars learning to use the new rig?
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 10 at 10:09am

As an 'outsider' but having sailed both the Tasar over several years in the past and more recently the 'hybrid' NS based boat we used as a test bed during the Icon development I can at least give some impressions.  In summary modern NS hulls seem much more easily driven than the Tasar one and are considerably better in light winds  - not surprisingly given that something like 35 years is a long time in a development class.  Just think how N12s and MRs have changed in the UK.

However the Tasar always carried a larger rig than the NS and this may have kept in on the pace over the years.  Both carry rotating rigs and daggers as well.  Icon is bigger than the NS but slightly shorter but wider than the Tasar but critically it employs more recent NS thinking in terms of hull.  It has also jumped to a carbon skinny stick mast as this is now practical and is highly efficient and low drag in form.  This is considerably lighter than the metal rotating mast of the Tasar or that the majority of NSs carry (some now use carbon rotating elliptical sections now).

My speculative thought ... If you put a Tasar sized rig on the NS either rotational or modern carbon stick it would beat a Tasar in any conditions.  That the NS is comparable to the Tasar carrying less rig is a tribute to the continued development of that class. (The Tasar like Icon was another NS spin-off but back in the 70's) 

As for Icon ... we will soon see what is really possible when you can rip up the rule books and really 'mix n match'

Mike L. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 10 at 11:33am
Thats the same as my experience. The NS hulls are very easily driven but whilst the rigs are very efficient they are also very small. Sometimes you can't beat a bit of area. Hopefully the Icon combines the benefits of the modern NS hull with extra sail area set on a lovely Aardspar mast.
Many of the features on the Icon are there to make it as good as possible to sail rather than focussing on speed at all costs, but I think it will still be suprisingly fast.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 10 at 11:43am
Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by Russell Moore

Chris, sorry about the comparison post re NS v Tasar, this is what happens when you, 1, Rely on a biased report from an NS sailor who was there, and 2, Don't check the actual results yourself, I feel most humbled..

No worries, Russell!

I'm interested partly because the comparative performance does seem to have changed - go back a while on this forum and I was saying that the Tasar had no hope against the NS myself. Embarrassed

Is that to do with the standard of sailors, or the Tasars learning to use the new rig?


Hard to say; then again I've never been known how anyone can claim to judge the standard of a class compared to other boats.  We're in learning phase, breaking things every regatta and coming from a club with not much competition, whereas when I last raced the class much nothing broke and our club was the best one around, so I can't tell.

Some top guys (i,e. a multiple 505 champ with years in Tasars) say that the class is hotter now, but o the other hand my *&^%$#@! brother hopped back into the class for a regatta and finished 4points (make that more, there was a strange club rule requiring him to count an OCS) behind the world champs, putting him ahead of the 505 champ, an Olympic-trials winning crew (one of our main rivals) and a three time world champ (Olympic Soling match racing and Yngling) skipper, all with years of experience in the class.

All the crews, however, say that once you get used to the new sails they are significantly faster, especially on the reaches, in acceleration, and at the top of the range.  They are much easier to use and Rob Douglass says that the fleet is much closer than it used to be - in the past there were lots of people who could have good races, but many less who were consistently fast.  But Rob and others say that they do take getting used to, which is why when they first came out the dacron boats were competitive a lot of the time.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 11 at 10:22pm

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 11 at 10:24pm

ICON is go!

Testing with 002 is now nearly complete and the all new ICON undergoes its first pre-production hull test sail within the next week (weather permitting).  This will be the first test of the new longer / wider production hull,  (14’8” x 6’4”) new Aardspar all carbon rig and latest sails !

Following overwhelming feedback, we will be trialing a dangly pole system to control the jib.  The jib itself has 3 soft full length battens and sheets off the floor (as opposed to the side deck) on adjustable tracks.

As on the development boat, the main has a square head and 3 full length battens above the hounds and a couple of shorter battens below.  This gives a good compromise between the upper sail control that full length battens allow and the readability that a soft sail gives.  Not a new idea, but it works well and suits this type of boat (quickish but simple).  There's a tad more luff curve at the top (fuller head) than in the previous sail and the balance between main and jib has been adjusted now with a larger jib and a slightly reduced mainsail.

The mast is a custom designed 50mm tapered carbon section coated with white two-pot epoxy, to reduce maintenance and increase life.  It’s a little stiffer than the previous mast and has non-penetrating shrouds and lowers to reduce water ingress in the event of capsize (helps prevent turtling). 

The production hull is light, stiff and very torsionally rigid, with a long competitive life predicted.  It has an extremely spacious self-draining cockpit and minimal, but effective, controls - just kicker, cunningham, outhaul, rig tension/rake and that dangly pole system. 

Final proving will continue up to the official launch at the Dinghy Show in early March.   Hope to see lots of you there! 

P.S. Prior to that the boat will be sailing regularly at Burghfield SC near Reading to de-snag the fit-out with the possibility of additional outings to some of the seasonal handicap events.    Icons predicted PN will be somewhere between the Tasar with which it shares some NS14 heritage and a Merlin Rocket.  The second boat (mine!) is already moulded and is just waiting for any feedback from the first boat before being finished off.  So if anyone wants a look/sail prior to the Dinghy Show, just get in touch with either Mike or me.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 11 at 10:28pm
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Russell Moore View Drop Down
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Posts: 20 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Russell Moore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 11 at 11:00pm
Peaky, any chance you could sail your NS up against the Icon for a comparison sail, using the NS sized sails? Assuming you still have the NS.
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The Moo View Drop Down
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Posts: 809 		Post Options Post Options   Quote The Moo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 11 at 11:21pm
Hope it has 4x4 capability for that dinghy park!!! Seriously though nice looking boat
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alstorer View Drop Down
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 11 at 7:07am
Looking good! Mindyou- needs the boom painted white to look properly pimp!
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