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Russell Moore View Drop Down
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Posts: 20 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Russell Moore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Cirrus Icon Development
    Posted: 07 Dec 10 at 11:47am
At the recent ACT dinghy championships in Canberra, we at last had a real chance to compare the NS14 with the Tasar, as the Tasars started 5 minutes before the NSs over the same course.
 
The winds were 15+kts, and we had Mike Douglas,  world champion Tasar skipper, vs Peter Vacurigus several times Australian NS champion, I am told that on most occasions Peter almost caught Mike over the approx' 90 min' races.
 
So Icon will have to be at least that much faster than a Tasar to be equal to an NS. Interestingly here in Australia the Tasar has a VYC yardstick of 107.5 vs 108 for the NS, although these yardsticks are way out of date, and haven't been upgraded for over 10 years.
 
Check out the NS 14 website, ACT section for some video of the races.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 10 at 12:11pm
OK,Just looked back at the Icon pictures from the dinghy show and it had the squared off corners and I thought it looked good at the time so stick with it! I also noticed the grab handles in the side of the cockpit. I would also keep those.
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Neptune View Drop Down
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Posts: 1314 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 10 at 12:12pm
The Taser PY is 1023...in your example Russel that would make the NS14 PY about 968 (if i got my sums right) - Thats faster than a 470 or a Fireball!
 
Why does that Icon have to be equal to an NS.  The NS has developed to suit the conditions in Aus - are they not windier than typical UK conditions. The NS also carries a lighter crew than the intended market for the Icon
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MikeBz View Drop Down
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote MikeBz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 10 at 2:18pm
The Tasar handicap seems to have been somewhat overtaken these days, esp. compared to things like Phantoms & Merlins.
 
On the gunwhale 'corners', of course aesthetics are totally subjective - just saying what I see & feel rather than criticising.
 
Mike
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 10 at 9:19pm

We are not aiming to be able to ‘beat’ the NS14 in theory or in practice merely to exploit its general hull form with modifications.  So longer, wider, more volume, rocker changes, conventional centreboard and non-rotating ‘stick’ mast rig in carbon.   It carries weight more readily care of the extra volume and is more ‘accessible’ to more people.

How fast – my bet is faster than a Tasar especially in the light and medium breeze and slower than a Merlin given it does not carry a spinnaker.    No particular speed target has ever been made during the programme -  we simply wanted to develop a simple but sophisticated boat and offer a rewarding alternative to the mainstream. 

Width – narrower than a 400 at approx 1.95m

Corners ?  Marmite .... We liked them on the NS so ICON got them but not as extreme - you have to see it in the flesh.  The looks are not 'regular UK'  but it is gorgeous all the same.  

Update – spend much of today stepping the Aardspars carbon mast on the full spec  ICON hull – much time involved in rake decisions, sheeting points etc and we were not quick given the freezing conditions.  Now I find there is no ‘Battle of the Classes’ race to aim for this year (we had quietly entered two ICONs ...)  so will now aim at something a little later in the New Year.

 Mike L.
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 10 at 10:02pm
Bring it down to the Beastie Mike to see how it goes against some good Phantoms, etc. Should be a test of the stability too, maybe this year you won't fall in? I reckon it could be a winner. Oh that I and I forgot to look at it at the Burghfield Phantom open and I want a butchers

Edited by maxibuddah - 07 Dec 10 at 10:04pm
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 10 at 12:53am
Originally posted by Russell Moore

At the recent ACT dinghy championships in Canberra, we at last had a real chance to compare the NS14 with the Tasar, as the Tasars started 5 minutes before the NSs over the same course.
 
The winds were 15+kts, and we had Mike Douglas,  world champion Tasar skipper, vs Peter Vacurigus several times Australian NS champion, I am told that on most occasions Peter almost caught Mike over the approx' 90 min' races.
 
The official times certainly don't show Peter "almost catching" the top Tasar (Rob and Nicole Douglass) on "most races". 

For what it's worth, the official times show that;

In Race 1, the first NS (Peter V) was exactly 2m quicker than the first Tasar (the Dugglii).
In Race 2, the Dugglii topped the Tasars again, 4 min 27s quicker than Peter V, who won the NSs.
In Race 3, the first Tasar was 17 seconds faster than the top NS. The Dugglii were second Tasar, about 1m 15s slower than PV who won the NSs each race.
In Race 4, PV was a comfortable 3m 56s quicker than the Dugglii.

So the winning NS v winning Tasar score was 2-all; hardly "most occasions", and only once was the top NS closer than 3m at the finish. And three of the four races were under 60 minutes, not approx 90.

IMHO when conditions fluctuate so much that the finishing time between two similar classes varies from 4 1/2m one way to 4m the other way, it's not a true indication of pace.  Which is NOT saying that the Tasar is now faster than the Northie.


So Icon will have to be at least that much faster than a Tasar to be equal to an NS. Interestingly here in Australia the Tasar has a VYC yardstick of 107.5 vs 108 for the NS, although these yardsticks are way out of date, and haven't been upgraded for over 10 years.
 
Check out the NS 14 website, ACT section for some video of the races.

For what it's worth (not much, perhaps) the Tasar seems to be pretty competitive as far as I can see.

At the previous NS/Tasar meeting, at Jervis Bay, the Tasar (Rob and Nicole Douglass again) were comfortably ahead of Craig and Mel Davidson and the rest of the NS14s.  Unfortunately the results aren't still on the web.  The slight chop and WW/LW courses probably suit the Tasars, as from memory we get creamed by NSs on reaches a lot of the time.

Last time I sailed Tasars much, about 12 years ago (gulp!) we had a bunch of top 3-4 finishes out of NSW Tasars, but we couldn't come close to the NS14s in lake races (it was different in the choppy Batemans Bay events).  Now that the fleet has become used to the Mylars (or the rest of them have - we're still learning and bits are still falling off the boat :-)  ) the two classes seem quite close.

Great boats both, as the Icon will be.




Edited by Chris 249 - 08 Dec 10 at 1:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 10 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by maxibuddah


Bring it down to the Beastie Mike to see how it goes against some good Phantoms, etc. Should be a test of the stability too, maybe this year you won't fall in? I reckon it could be a winner. Oh that I and I forgot to look at it at the Burghfield Phantom open and I want a butchers

I intend to do the Beastie in my Icon. You are very welcome to take it for a ride. With me sailing it would be fairer to compare against very average Phantoms!
It looked fab when I saw it on Tuesday. With a white hull and matching mast it looks very pimp!

Edited by Peaky - 09 Dec 10 at 1:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 10 at 3:44pm
Ah, well. I dont actually have any photo's. It was too cold to take my hands out of my pockets!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 10 at 4:17pm
Come, come, James. I shall resist the temptation for any number of crudely witty replies.
I could try to describe her curves, but it's a family forum. But she's a pinup, no question.
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