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iGRF View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03 Jan 22 at 9:38am
Lot of cack handed thinking here. It’s the mast and sail attached to it that’s trying to tip the boat over. So just as fatter head sails have more adverse heeling moment so does having a wire attached to the mast high up to counter the heel What then happens the combine weight downforce is spread to weather . The bigger the wire angle the further to weather. Taller helms therefor being faster and able to sail the boat flat,
I agree with the issues having a too high hook would cause in lulls a consequence of my thinking marred by years of having a boom to hang on if necessary, but I think I might have a work around. The point still wrankles though as to why so many think it’s wrong
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 22 at 9:50am
Think about the angle the wire is from your body to the mast, it's not much off vertical, if you stood at the side of your boat and tried to tip boat on its side using the exact same angle, you wouldn't tip it over.
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 22 at 9:56am
Originally posted by Oatsandbeans

Exactly right-the only thing that matters for the righting moment is the distance from the centre line to the centre of mass of the sailor. You don’t have to think about anything else it will just confuse your thinking (a bit like the lee bow effect conundrum!)
Ah but I’ve proved myself correct time and again with my tidal lee bow theory’s by winning race after race, just as my hook height theorys proved correct in windsurfing as I pioneered lower and lower hook height in the early days. However I’m not claiming to know this one, which is why I’m asking the question and so far nothing written here so far has convinced me not to try. I think like lots of things y’all have been doing it wrong all these years 😉
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Posts: 789 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 22 at 9:57am
Originally posted by iGRF

Lot of cack handed thinking here. It’s the mast and sail attached to it that’s trying to tip the boat over. So just as fatter head sails have more adverse heeling moment so does having a wire attached to the mast high up to counter the heel What then happens the combine weight downforce is spread to weather . The bigger the wire angle the further to weather. Taller helms therefor being faster and able to sail the boat flat,
I agree with the issues having a too high hook would cause in lulls a consequence of my thinking marred by years of having a boom to hang on if necessary, but I think I might have a work around. The point still wrankles though as to why so many think it’s wrong

I believe professionally you where something in marketing I am an Engineer. The wire and where it is attached to the mast or the person has no effect of the righting moment. The only factors are total sail force, effective height of sail force, how far outboard the crew weight is and the crew weight 

Think about a TOY unstayed mast and sliding seat no wires, wind increases more force in sail sailor moves outboard more on the seat it’s that simple. 

The trapeze wire and the shrouds are irrelevant 
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 22 at 10:01am
Originally posted by 423zero

Think about the angle the wire is from your body to the mast, it's not much off vertical, if you stood at the side of your boat and tried to tip boat on its side using the exact same angle, you wouldn't tip it over.
Youve just made the case for me. Exactly why moving the wire further away helps pull the boat over.
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Posts: 789 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 22 at 10:02am
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Oatsandbeans

Exactly right-the only thing that matters for the righting moment is the distance from the centre line to the centre of mass of the sailor. You don’t have to think about anything else it will just confuse your thinking (a bit like the lee bow effect conundrum!)
Ah but I’ve proved myself correct time and again with my tidal lee bow theory’s by winning race after race, just as my hook height theorys proved correct in windsurfing as I pioneered lower and lower hook height in the early days. However I’m not claiming to know this one, which is why I’m asking the question and so far nothing written here so far has convinced me not to try. I think like lots of things y’all have been doing it wrong all these years 😉

As I said yesterday windsurfers are different because the mast mast is able to tilt relative to the position of the centre of buoyancy. I would draw another picture but it won’t have any impact on your thinking and I’m going sailing instead. 
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 22 at 10:08am
The wire is purely to support your weight, positioned correctly it offers support for your back.
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 22 at 10:17am
I have a friend who is an engineer. He once told me that he spent half a night in a pub with a bloke who was convinced putting a wind turbine on his car to generate electricity as he drove along could feed an auxiliary motor to save petrol.   
Nuff said.
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 22 at 10:22am
So what’s now being suggested the Contender doesn’t need a wire and trapeze at all because you’re an Engineer and I’m in marketing?

Edited by iGRF - 03 Jan 22 at 10:24am
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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 22 at 10:22am
Originally posted by Paramedic

So:

If the height of the wire on the mast makes no difference why bother with a trapeze at all?

If the angle of the wire to the body (Position of the wire on the body effectively) doesn't make a difference why not just trapeze off the centreboard case all of the time and reduce your windage?

A higher hook on the body must make a difference but isn't practical and probably doesn't make enough difference to make the impracticalities worth dealing with.


If the mast and the body were perfectly stiff, then you would have the wire at the tip of the mast and the top of the head, as that creates the least tensile force in the wire. The closer the wire moves to the foot of the mast and to your feet, the higher the tension in the wire. Actual positions are really determined by the highest, relatively stiff point in the mast (usually where supported by shrouds) and where our bodies are most comfortable with the force.
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