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The predictability of PYAG
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The predictability of PYAG
    Posted: 07 Mar 16 at 3:38pm
I think it stands to reason they are getting better... is there any other (reasonably) new class with a training programme as competent and comprehensive as the MPS?  
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rich96 View Drop Down
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Posts: 596 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 16 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by Chris 249



Yep, I've never seen an Icon, and have never pretended to have done so.  But one can also say that a lot of people have opinions on handicap even on boats where they (1) have a sentimental interest and understandable pride in because they developed them; (2) have had a strong and direct economic interest in.  They are both categories you fit in, and surely you would admit that your views must be somewhat influenced as a result.  So neither of us is in a situation of perfect information and perfect objectivity.  I did NOT pretend to be an expert nor did I try to draw firm conclusions - I said there were "indications" that the rating "<span style="line-height: 16.8px; : rgb251, 251, 253;">may not be too far off."</span>
It's reasonable to point these issues out to Grumpf  because of the abusive, vicious and defamatory attacks that Grumpf has made on volunteers in relation to PY.  To stay silent when one sailor keeps sliming the volunteers our sport relies upon seems wrong.  Pointing out that the issue is not as simple as he makes out seems reasonable. 
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">The NS14/Tasar/Contender comparison is arguably pretty valid because it gives an interesting insight into the only other major sailing country in which there is a lot of yardstick racing involving boats similar to the Icon.  T</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;">he Tasar and NS14 have been rated identically down here for some time.  </span><span style="line-height: 16.8px;">The Tasar does not have a "racing snake" hull - it has underwater sections from about 1970, and it has an ideal crew weight of around 140kg.  Your own advertising claims that the Icon is faster than the Tasar.  </span>
<span style="line-height: 16.8px;">In Australia, the Tasar and NS14 were rated for years at 0.5% slower than the Contender.  I thought this rating was harsh on the Tasar, but then again our Tasar fleet (including #3 in the country) used to do OK against the #2 Contender in the country.</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">In Germany, the Tasar is rated 1% slower than a Contender.  </span><span style="line-height: 1.4;">In America, the Tasar is rated 2% FASTER than the Contender, and the V15 (vaguely Tasar/Icon-ish) is rated just 0.5% slower than the Contender.</span>
<div style="line-height: 16.8px;"><span style="line-height: 1.4;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">So if other rating authorities around the world have been rating the Tasar (a similar boat to the Icon but shorter, older and slower) as about 1% slower than a Contender, is it really so bad that the newer, longer Icon with its wobbly pole and carbon stick is rated as fast as a Contender?</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">I'm not claiming that I can say where the Icon should rate, and I never have done that.  All that I have ever done is to try to defend the PY volunteers against Grumpf's revolting personal attacks, by bringing up objective evidence that the Icon's yardstick may not be the creation of corruption and stupidity as he has claimed. </span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">      </span>




The close PY of a Tasar compared to a Contender is very surprising.

I have sailed both. We sailed at club where we had both and generally the Tasars beat the Contenders on the water in the light but were murdered by them in breeze. Overall the Contenders would have been significantly faster.

If the Tasar were rated close to a Contender it would be similar to an RS 300 - it would have no chance in most conditions

Also it would be quicker than a Merlin - also not very likely in most conditions.

Very odd





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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 16 at 3:47pm
it's all conjecture anyway.... the 'new Icon' will apparently have a kite on it, according to the rumour mill following the show anyway.

I hope it doesn't flop like the predecessor....  
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L123456 View Drop Down
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Posts: 500 		Post Options Post Options   Quote L123456 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 16 at 3:53pm
Originally posted by salmon80

Why is their so much discussion on this forum about the icon? Isn't there only about 3 ever made

It seems to me that it gets too much attention

The Icon isn't a class and never will be ... it was an attempt to create a new class that for what ever reason has failed ... there are a few boats kicking around bought by early adopters but otherwise that is it.

Why we should still bother discussing it I don't know ...

We should be focused on the Laser PY  Wink
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 16 at 4:04pm
TT

The bargain of the century can be had currently - Another Icon is apparently finding its way into the UK via The Netherlands reseller at the moment or has already.  It is effectively brand new, and went to a new crew in the Midlands who had been lent a boat by the CA for a few weeks for only Euro 4,000 with all covers, trolley etc - a few quid over £ 3k at todays exchange rates.  (note to self ... must chase up outstanding royalies sometime ;-). 

I'm sure there are other new ones available if the builder wants to sell them.  (btw - Cirrus has at no time prevented any existing license holder producing - if they choose to do or if they don't is simply up to them).  In this instance the foils, carbon spars, deck fittings and North sails are worth more than the selling price frankly.   I must stress Cirrus are not involved in supplying Icon anymore.   Might be worth a punt to someone at these sort of prices ... but do address any enquiry direct to the CA rather than Cirrus. 

Back on subject - So is the British Moth PN a tough one ?  Wink


Edited by Cirrus - 07 Mar 16 at 4:05pm
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 16 at 4:13pm
I loved my sail in the icon and would loved to see it grow in leaps and bounds. I just don't see that the yardstick had anything to do with it. The bitching and moaning was the only reason anyone bar those racing it had any idea it had an experimental number in the first place.

How else do you feel that the establishment let it down? Didn't order all other boats burnt and only icons to be built?
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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L123456 View Drop Down
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Posts: 500 		Post Options Post Options   Quote L123456 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 16 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by L123456



The Icon isn't a class and never will be ... it was an attempt to create a new class that for what ever reason has failed ...]


And don't you morons like nothing more than to see something fail?

Not really .... I am just observing the facts ...

I actually thought it was quite a nice looking boat.

Seems you are an expert; why didn't it catch on?
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Oinks View Drop Down
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Posts: 267 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oinks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 16 at 4:15pm
"I must stress Cirrus are not involved in supplying Icon anymore"

Really? Cirrus website says..."Cirrus know just about everything to do with Icon and remain an authorised supplier for the UK and Ireland. We are now working with Rondar Raceboats and their other agents/distributors currently being appointed.   Cirrus can also supply boats anywhere within and beyond mainland Europe".

How confusing!
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 16 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

TT

The bargain of the century can be had currently - Another Icon is apparently finding its way into the UK via The Netherlands reseller at the moment or has already.  It is effectively brand new, and went to a new crew in the Midlands who had been lent a boat by the CA for a few weeks for only Euro 4,000 with all covers, trolley etc - a few quid over £ 3k at todays exchange rates.  (note to self ... must chase up outstanding royalies sometime ;-). 

I'm sure there are other new ones available if the builder wants to sell them.  (btw - Cirrus has at no time prevented any existing license holder producing - if they choose to do or if they don't is simply up to them).  In this instance the foils, carbon spars, deck fittings and North sails are worth more than the selling price frankly.   I must stress Cirrus are not involved in supplying Icon anymore.   Might be worth a punt to someone at these sort of prices ... but do address any enquiry direct to the CA rather than Cirrus. 

Back on subject - So is the British Moth PN a tough one ?  Wink

3 grand for something that's rumoured to be obsolete by June..... erm, no thanks.  
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Mark Jardine View Drop Down
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Posts: 1028 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mark Jardine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 16 at 4:35pm
GRF

I've had enough of your PYAG group bashing. They are volunteers doing a job and the repetitiveness of your argument is mind-numbingly dull. Stop it. Now.

Mark
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