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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Posts: 332 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Boat Performance Index
    Posted: 18 Mar 15 at 10:41am
You can't help them...
They don't do it for the same reason windsurfers do, they're to serious about their little pots and trophies and being quantified, they'd rather have an event of twelve people, who all know their place in the pecking order and one of maybe three, will become a NATIONAL CHAMPION...

It's why it is the way it is, I don't know why I keep trying to apply logic where there is only self interest, chiselling bullsh*t, and completely illogical randomness in result definition, that really has no actual bearing in sailing skill, other than if a group of the same type gather together and even then body style will inevitably be the defining factor.

Like getting a class to change for the better, they'll never alter voluntarily.

They might fall off the edge of the planet.

Still you have to keep thinking maybe there's an answer..


Edited by Woodburner - 18 Mar 15 at 10:43am
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 15 at 10:42am
Best way of getting dinghies involved with NWF would be surely by inviting one or more of the big teaching establishments to bring along Picos, Funboats, Teras, Fevas and the like for people to go and play with. Then send them all out for races similar to what you described a while ago. They can bump into each other to their heart's content.
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 15 at 10:49am
I think if there was a really strong desire to get dinghies involved then that would be the best approach, however I'd imagine that pandora's box might be best left shut..... it would take a group of likeminded sailors to approach the NWF to see if we run something within the framework of the festival's competition side imho.  

Truth be told, I don't think I know enough like minded sailors well enough with a boat that work in that scenario to wind my neck out personally and go for it to organise it.... not yet anyway.  I think it would flop.... 10 or so showing up, 5 or so going home whinging about the forecast or the launching or the fact that there 'wasn't a proper beat'.  (We ran racing in less 2 knots.... yes, it was hard work and required will power, but the races last 15 minutes so boredom struggles to set in.)

RS should probably give the festival a passing glance regardless...... there's thousands of visitors, each of whom might be persuaded into a demo sail by a local company with enough tits n' teeth to make it look fun.   The stand-up paddle boards were permanently out on demo.  It's got to be worth the marketing spend to put a tent up from a brand awareness point of view alone.


Edited by turnturtle - 18 Mar 15 at 10:57am
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 15 at 11:14am
Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by Woodburner



So other than your detail issues, could you see yourself say at your venue hosting an event for boats of say Group 11 & 12, have two separate starts and the results would be scratch, whatever happened on the water on the day?



No. You'd not get the classes involved, so who would come?

You have it all ass about face. If 2 classes know they are of similar speed, then they could run joint meetings where they become one class for the day. But what most do to make numbers viable is involve clubs in putting on a meeting for 2 or  classes that are a little different, running separate starts but sharing rescue cover an lunches.

Last year, the Lightnings and British Moths shared a venue at Whitefriars. Now, because of a twist of fate the handicap for the boats this year is the same. Perfect for your group open, right? Not from what I saw. In anything but a drifter, the best BM helm would have been 1/2 way down the fleet. In very light winds, or at a small river location in light winds, the top Lightning would have been 1/2 way down the fleet. How is this a workable solution? Bad enough that it happens in a club handicap race, but why would anyone travel for an Open like that?

I'm sure there are classes with similar profiles where it would work, and I'm sure it has been done before. Signets used to race with another class, from what I remember. But you'd have to be in the situation where you'd not know which class is likely to win, over a broad range of conditions. If even the MPS and 700 struggle with that, despite being so close on handicap and so much of the boat speed based on helming skill, what chance of other classes matching up?

This year for timing reasons the BMs are sharing with the 2000 class. I think we will keep them separate...

Well said. There's often so much boatspeed difference between different classes that for the guys at the front of the fleet, it gets down to the conditions of the day.

To be honest I'd almost go the other direction - instead of trying to group boats of similar overall speed, try to group boats that have a similar relationship across the wind range.  For example, a race between competent sailors on an Int Canoe and a Raceboard 9.5 will always be decided by who gets the wind in their favoured range, as will a race between a Laser and a Tasar.  At a guess, I'd say a race between a Finn and a Radial would be more of a test of skill.

Mind you, after a couple of years of yardstick racing I still can't really enjoy it.  We've got half a dozen classes in which the club's top sailor has been top 4 in the worlds or top 2 nationally (plus the Lasers which have a similar standard and more depth, but where we've only won state titles) and there are very few days when the winner among that bunch wouldn't get down to who had the boat that had the right wind. 

After another season of trying to give yardstick/mixed fleet racing a go, I've pretty much decided that from now on, we'll just have fun sailing and training locally, and only race when we can go where there are good class fleets.  We tend to find more pure sailing joy and socialising when we just get a few boats from the same class together for training and coaching, or coaching.  Racing when the wind decides the winner is just too frustrating, but that's personal.









Edited by Chris 249 - 18 Mar 15 at 11:27am
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 15 at 11:23am
Originally posted by Woodburner

You can't help them...
They don't do it for the same reason windsurfers do, they're to serious about their little pots and trophies and being quantified, they'd rather have an event of twelve people, who all know their place in the pecking order and one of maybe three, will become a NATIONAL CHAMPION...

It's why it is the way it is, I don't know why I keep trying to apply logic where there is only self interest, chiselling bullsh*t, and completely illogical randomness in result definition, that really has no actual bearing in sailing skill, other than if a group of the same type gather together and even then body style will inevitably be the defining factor.

Like getting a class to change for the better, they'll never alter voluntarily.

They might fall off the edge of the planet.

Still you have to keep thinking maybe there's an answer..

If it was only self interest, why would many people spend so much time trying to encourage other highly competitive sailors into their classes?  In all the classes I sail, the vast majority of people (and probably ALL of the organisers) actively encourage other fast sailors, even when they know that doing so will reduce their chance of winning. 

In my club in the last season alone, five class "gurus" (all but one of them either national champs or worlds runner-ups) tried to encourage people who had beaten them to stay in their class, or to move into the class. Not one of those people would have done that if they just wanted to win trophies, and the same is repeated at national level in just about every class I've known.

I'd rather sail in a regatta of 40+, but not if the class was so diverse that the top placings were decided by who had kit that fitted the wind that blew through the regatta. I've sailed in some small classes as well as in the biggest classes, and I'd rather sail in a class of 12 where winning got down to a question of who sailed better than in a class of 48 where winning got down to a question of which fast sailor was lucky enough to get the right wind for their kit. 

If you're happy to have the random chance of wind determine who will win, why not just draw the winner out of a hat and save all that getting wet stuff?
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 15 at 11:28am
Chris, just set your targets by the day -for instance if you are in a skiffy type boat in light winds, just the challenge of beating more traditional boats on the water can be enough - forget the handicapping and just work to the challenge before you. When you get those conditions in a fleet race, you may well find that the work you put in keeping up with nominally slower boats gives you the edge.

If you are in the slower boat in a blow, you know full well that a handicap result is out of the window against trapeze boats, but you can set yourself targets in how far you are behind.

All in the mind - wish I could remember all that when actually racing...
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iiitick View Drop Down
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Posts: 478 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iiitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 15 at 12:03pm
I still can't see what the problem with the present class system is. Sailors have preferences for various classes depending on home club or physical characteristics. When series events or championships take place those who fancy a go turn up and have a go. Turnouts can be small but so what? The enthusiasim is what counts. You can bet that all class supporters want to increase the numbers of their chosen class. 

We all know the class I support and believe in. The fact that so many people are too short sighted or have an unfortunate BMI is not my fault.
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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Posts: 332 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 15 at 12:19pm
I meant 'class' self interest which it is, that is the key driving factor and the RYA have encouraged it over the years, it's their divide and rule credo. When do the class organisations ever come together for their mutual benefit other than at the dinghy show but even then it is about fighting for interest from a diminishing interest base.

The Problem?
It's too complicated
It's unfair and doesn't work
To difficult to bother with anyway.

A system that defines the boat rather than the boat and a group of sailors who may or may not be beginners or experts depending on the favourability of the number, wether it can be designed around or not would be a lot easier to comprehend by newcomers and a league or group within which its raced could be geographically more regular and widespread, thus offering more opportunity as a catch all for would be eventers.

However talking to you lot on here, fixed in your ways, or only allowed out from your cell so often, I can see is a waste of time.

It's never going to happen.
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 15 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by Woodburner

However talking to you lot on here, fixed in your ways, or only allowed out from your cell so often, I can see is a waste of time.

sorry Graeme, got to be honest.... the folks posting here are the ones who are interested in at least discussing incremental changes.  The much maligned 'forum sh*tfight' that some just can't seem to cope with, is usually relatively like minded people approaching a similar goal in slightly different manners.  Bring the 'real' duffers from sailing clubs on here and you'll be replacing pacemakers all over the ponds and estuaries!!!!

We're the guys who appreciate that despite whatever you accuse them of, the PYAG have made massive improvements to the PY system over the last few years.  The concept of 'bandits' slowly being eroded into something of years gone by.  There has always been boats we knew had squiffy handicaps if you bought the best-in-breed racing version with new sails, that's unavoidable, but looking at the Phantom and Merlin number we can but see the effect being muted year on year.

We're the people who are willing to discuss new boats, new designs and some are even prepared to go out and buy or build them and invest in the infrastructure to make them successful- against woeful odds and conservatism.

The difference between 'us lot' and 'you' is that we're just a little bit further along the learning curve of acceptability- we simply accept that modest improvements over time are as good as it gets.  
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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Posts: 332 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 15 at 1:13pm
The real duffers remain in their smoke filled rooms, I'm sorry there's nothing you are going to say to convince me the PYAG or the RYA or both have made a total mess of the system, if you look at it from a broader view than your own particular craft. It's a total illogical mess, bad data chasing even worse data.

There were promises of a new tomorrow from Bas Edmonds, what happened? Nothing, just more of the same. We'll be going along with it and attempting to work within the 'system' but it's f**ked imv and needs a radical overhaul. The PYAG should be released from the fetters of data only and be permitted to correct obvious blunders, be able to call on computed facts rather than organised fiction, have the balls to say, well yes we decided that because of this and this and not hide behind a wall of incompetently created data fiction. Wether that be one man providing result after result over the course of a year or a lake full of muppets or beginners driving a number down or a gang of bandits driving it up.
Something needs to be done, something to suggest somewhere somebody is even worried about the grass roots and their sailing experience.
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