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The Evolution of Expense

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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 10:39pm
[RANT]
Oh good grief, that's just got to be challenged. Takers not givers indeed. What nonsense.

Doing circuit events is in itself a different kind of giving to the sport, especially if you're one of the 90% who isn't taking home the glassware. My club for one values the people who come to our open events, take the trouble to travel, bring an extra dimension to those of our class members who aren't able to travel. If you don't think that committment is giving something to the sport you need to look at yourself very hard. It sure as hell is giving something to our club that people are prepared to take the time and trouble to travel to our opens, to pay us an entry fee over their own club or RYA subscriptions and everything else. We're glad to see them and the more of these "takers" the better.

At different stages in your life its appropriate to do different things. Last time I was campaigning on the circuit semi seriously I was a member of a club, but I didn't contribute anything to it but my club fees. We did the occasional tuning weekend, but that was it, no duties, nothing like that.

Now though I have more time than I did then, and I get to the majority of my current clubs opens and I try and provide a reasonably efficient results service and some hopefully not too dreadful photos on the screen at lunchtime and on the website, which I hope makes the day better for the competitors. I'm not a giver now and a taker then, I'm the same damn person, just a different stage in life and different opportunities.

[/RANT]


Edited by JimC - 07 Mar 15 at 11:15pm
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 11:03pm
Thanks Jim, saves me having to put it worse.
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 15 at 7:54am
+1
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 15 at 7:59am
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

No because the other sports aren't so inherantly full of one up-manship class behaviours. As the other Sport he did was Judo, those sorts of behaviours are not allowed to perpetuate in the sport. 

Riiiiight. So human nature is completely different for sailors. 

Equipment comparisons will/are being made in all equipment sports. 

I've got full Campy, and I look down on him. He's Schimano 105. 
I look up to him, but I look down on him. He's got full Campy, but he's got some unbranded Chinese carp. I'm Schimano 105.
I know my place. 

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 15 at 8:25am
Mmm, but I submit that in a youth class its appropriate to do as much as possible tp damp down on those tendencies, especially as there is so little choice available in "pathway" classes.

In adult classes, sure if some people choose to sail boats that are ridiculously expensive, over complicated and have a somewhat snooty attitude and others sail boats which are, shall we say, a little more accessible, then that's fine, choice is a good thing. In junior classes however I think the administrators should be seeking to damp down that sort of thing because the sport needs to be accessible to starters. As Jack Sparrow said, time to worry about that sort of thing when the boat is pointing the right way 95% of the time. Most of the kids will only be reading settings of Daddy's tuning sheet anyway, its not even as if they are really learning very much.

Anyway, time to get moving, its a nice sunny morning out there, hope some breeze comes in.

Edited by JimC - 08 Mar 15 at 8:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 15 at 10:05am
Originally posted by JimC



Doing circuit events is in itself a different kind of giving to the sport, especially if you're one of the 90% who isn't taking home the glassware. My club for one values the people who come to our open events, take the trouble to travel, bring an extra dimension to those of our class members who aren't able to travel. If you don't think that committment is giving something to the sport you need to look at yourself very hard. It sure as hell is giving something to our club that people are prepared to take the time and trouble to travel to our opens, to pay us an entry fee over their own club or RYA subscriptions and everything else. We're glad to see them and the more of these "takers" the better.

Jim, I take your point, and I would never want to discourage participation in sailing at any level.

However our sport fundamentally exists because of the support of volunteers, whether it is race officers, galley slaves, fleet captains, flag officers, people running cadets, safety boat crews, RYA committee volunteers, Class Association committees, people manning stands at the Dinghy Show, people writing reports for publicity, people sorting out the results.  I think that we all do this because we feel a need to put in what we have taken out of our sport.

When you run your local club open meeting I doubt that it would stand up financially if all of the volunteers were paid the minimum wage, let alone something that reflected the skill set required to run a good open meeting.

My point, and maybe it came across as a bit too broad brush, is that there are an element of sailors who are very keen to participate in the racing, but not at all interested in volunteering to make stuff happen.

If everybody had this attitude we would have no sport.

Given that the management of virtually all Corinthian sailing is by sailing clubs, be it club racing, open meetings or national championships, to me it seems a shame that some sailors choose to opt out of Club membership, and to my eye this is exemplified by entering competitions as RYA.

I might be wrong, but it is how I see it.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 15 at 10:34am
Davidyacht,
well I for one would add a +1 to your comments and think them far from nonsense. Until it got dropped on, hard, there was for a while something of a trend for some of our top echelon sailors (ie, 5 ring circus types) to enter with their sponsor listed as their club, even though the sponsor was not an affiliated club. This though was just a small part of a bigger problem that is impacting on the sport. There are volunteers and then there are those who are being paid to be at the event. Talk about inequality! The RO for an event will be an unpaid volunteer, but the IJs are on a comfy deal as are those responsible for measurement. If it is a 5 ring event, it can get to the part that the competitors and many of the administrators are all doing well out of being on hand, whilst some others are giving up their own time and are often left out of pocket.
Something the RYA does badly is in how they handle this situation! They'll cherry pick a few big names, make a fuss of saying "thank you" to them, then do a global 'thanks' to the remaining rabble. They'd be far better off just doing a 'thank you to everyone' and leaving it at that, without the praise lavished on a chosen few.

But if you are one of those who just compete under the RYA banner and no not owe allegiance to a club - when DO you put something back in to the sport? (other than with your presence at an event).

Davidyacht - well done for saying what the apology merchants for the growing inbalance in the sport are too beholden to the 'top' to say!!

D
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 15 at 10:36am
Those people may be heavily involved in their class, maybe coaching, manning the stand, serving on the committee. They may not be, but plenty of club members are doing the minimum too. The club members may have good reasons... working weekends, taking Chardonnay horse riding, whatever. Taking a snapshot and making sweeping statements not always accurate!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 15 at 11:09am
Originally posted by Dougaldog

Davidyacht,
well I for one would add a +1 to your comments and think them far from nonsense. Until it got dropped on, hard, there was for a while something of a trend for some of our top echelon sailors (ie, 5 ring circus types) to enter with their sponsor listed as their club, even though the sponsor was not an affiliated club. This though was just a small part of a bigger problem that is impacting on the sport. There are volunteers and then there are those who are being paid to be at the event. Talk about inequality! The RO for an event will be an unpaid volunteer, but the IJs are on a comfy deal as are those responsible for measurement. If it is a 5 ring event, it can get to the part that the competitors and many of the administrators are all doing well out of being on hand, whilst some others are giving up their own time and are often left out of pocket.
Something the RYA does badly is in how they handle this situation! They'll cherry pick a few big names, make a fuss of saying "thank you" to them, then do a global 'thanks' to the remaining rabble. They'd be far better off just doing a 'thank you to everyone' and leaving it at that, without the praise lavished on a chosen few.

But if you are one of those who just compete under the RYA banner and no not owe allegiance to a club - when DO you put something back in to the sport? (other than with your presence at an event).

Davidyacht - well done for saying what the apology merchants for the growing inbalance in the sport are too beholden to the 'top' to say!!

D

Again - what you describe re thanks to volunteers is the case in just about every organisation.....including most Clubs I race at!  It's a bit of a human nature thing.

So I'd like to know whether some of the 'the RYA gets it wrong' posters are anti-establishment in all things, or just sailing.

I know I have a pro establishment bias....but I'm also paid (and have a very strong focus on this area in my current employment) to ask whether the organisation I work in is getting it right.


Edited by sargesail - 08 Mar 15 at 11:09am
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 15 at 11:29am
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

No because the other sports aren't so inherantly full of one up-manship class behaviours. As the other Sport he did was Judo, those sorts of behaviours are not allowed to perpetuate in the sport. 

Riiiiight. So human nature is completely different for sailors. 

Equipment comparisons will/are being made in all equipment sports. 

I've got full Campy, and I look down on him. He's Schimano 105. 
I look up to him, but I look down on him. He's got full Campy, but he's got some unbranded Chinese carp. I'm Schimano 105.
I know my place. 


I've never heard a single comment of that sort from racing cyclists (as distinct from cafe racers).  In fact it's very common for remarks about gear to be followed by a line like "not that it matters, if (insert club legend here) got on a tricycle he'd win".

I've heard comments like that fairly often from people sailing fast classes who were dissing slower classes. And as someone who sails a lot of old kit, I know there is the very occasional cranky guy who disses old kit in the class that they sail, but it's pretty rare in the larger classes IME.

Sadly, though, comments like that are endemic in big boat sailing. I've been aboard a couple of time when the call "sh***ter coming through" has come back, and looked up to see that the national IRC champ (a Swan) and the Bermuda class winner (another Swan) coming through on starboard. Both boats were fully kitted up (new 3DLs, etc) and those who sl*gged them off would never be able to afford them in a century or two.  It's a strange world where an immaculate professionally-maintained bit of kit that costs more than a house cops an insult, but it shows what can happen when a culture loses its bearings.

On the other hand, apparently a certain Mr Slingsby was taking out a squad as a treat when one of them referred to a little old 20-something footer from the '70s in that way. Tom apparently said, quite sharply, "some people love that boat and if you want to talk about it like that, you can get off now" (or words to that effect). That's nice to hear.

JS's tale about judo seems to confirm that you can create a culture that's not about denigrating the gear people use, which is great.



Edited by Chris 249 - 08 Mar 15 at 11:42am
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