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serious damage

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gordon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: serious damage
    Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 4:06pm
We are now arriving at the heart of the debate.

One point - rule 14 does not qualify damage - any damage will do to prevent RoW boat from being exonerated. If the reply to the question "was there any damage? is "Yes -but only a scratch" then according to the rule the RoW cannot be exonerated.

My latest thinking on this is as follows:


  • a hole in a hull is always serious damage

  • a deep scratch that weakens the laminate under the gelcoat is serious damage, as it will require work to permanently prevent further deterioration

  • a small scratch to the gelcoat is not serious damage, but damage over a large area may be considered serious as the work required to restore the boats original appearance may be considerable;

  • broken stanchions and lifelines constitute serious damage when the boat no longer meets the appropriate safety regulations;

  • damage to a sail that cannot de repaired using tape is serious damage, especially in classes that impose restrictions on the number of sails that may be carried on board and on the replacement of sails during a regatta or season;

  • damage to standing or running rigging when such damage significantly increases the risk of rig failure. Guidance may be required from a specialist to establish the extent of the increased risk.

  • the cost of the repair exceeds any reasonable excess on the boat's insurance policy. This on the basis that any claim on racing insurance risks leading to an increase in insurance premiums for both the boat's owners and other owners of similar boats.


To resume: a prudent owner can accept that in the course of racing his boat will suffer minor damage and will depreciate in value. However, no prudent owner can accept that breaking boats to the extent that considerable time and expense is required to make good damage is a normal part of racing. The Racing Rules of Sailing have been written, and should be applied, so that sailing remains a non-contact sport, and that the penalty for causing serious damage, as defined above, is to retire from the race.


Gordon
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by Brass

If you can see what to buff out, how can you say it's not damage?  I'm happy that it might be trivial damage, that a protest committee should not take notice of (particularly for rule 14( b )), but I don't think you can make it disappear.

I think it would be possible for, say a nice, bowsprit-shaped hole, high in the topsides of a fibreglass boat, with no structural damage, in an accessible position, that would take no more than an hour or two to bog up would be short of serious

By buffing out, I'm referring to those situation where you've literally swapped paint. Bit of elbow grease, squirt of deck cleaner, apply sponge et voila, all shiny again. In those situations, where the existance or not of damage is relevant to 14, then it's OK to find after the race that it really is a case of a quick clean (so while14 might apply, the RoW boat will be exonerated). 

To me, a repair should take you pretty close to status quo ante. A hole means laminating. I'm no great shakes with the resin pot, but I would think that most people view it as non-trivial when they start cutting cloth and mixing resin and hardner. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by Brass

that would take no more than an hour or two to bog up [to] be short of serious

Umm, I think you're stretching it there. A proper repair on something like that, especially if it involves gel coat, I think ought to be in the serious category.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by Brass


I think it would be possible for, say a nice, bowsprit-shaped hole, high in the topsides of a fibreglass boat, with no structural damage, in an accessible position, that would take no more than an hour or two to bog up would be short of serious




Really? If someone put their bowsprit straight through me, I would certainly expect them to retire.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 2:08pm
If you can see what to buff out, how can you say it's not damage?  I'm happy that it might be trivial damage, that a protest committee should not take notice of (particularly for rule 14( b )), but I don't think you can make it disappear.

I think it would be possible for, say a nice, bowsprit-shaped hole, high in the topsides of a fibreglass boat, with no structural damage, in an accessible position, that would take no more than an hour or two to bog up would be short of serious


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 11:10am
Entirely agree. Holes are serious. 

Buff out - not damage ("And rubbin, son, is racin'(*)'")
Gelcoat chip - damage
Hole - serious damage. 

*(Yes, I know that it isn't.)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 10:15am
The problem is that different protest committees (and even international juries) seem to have  widely different opinion on what constitutes serious damage. Some seem to think that damage costing several grand to repair is not serious if the boat can finish the race! Others, my self included, hold that a hole in a boat is serious damage Coming back to port with a hole in your boat should not be a normal part of sailing.
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 11:50am
Try the marked changes.

Originally posted by gordon

Combining different texts I have come up with the following proposed guidelines.

I would appreciate your opinion:

Serious damage is any damage that seriously impairs the performance of a boat or her crew, or seriouslysignificantly diminishes the market value of the boat.

Serious damage has occurred when:

  • the normal operation of the boat ishas been compromised,
  • its structural integrity may have been impaired, and or
  • its hull integrity has been significantly breached.
Serious damage is damage that aA prudent owner will repair promptly even though the boat may be able to continue to race, with or without temporary repairs. Repairs will generally require more than 3 hours work.

So we have produced an elegant little paragraph.

Originally posted by gordon

This question arose because of a competitor feeling aggrieved because we had DSQ'd him for aking a hole in another boat (28ft keelboats). He felt that juries at other class events would not have considered the damage serious and felt that we were "harsh" in not accepting that his turns were not a sufficient penalty.

If this is the problem you are trying to solve, how does the 'definition' help?

Couldn't you just as well explain to the competitor that the protest committee considered the factors in Judges Manual M2 and M3 and concluded that the damage was serious?


Edited by Brass - 05 Mar 14 at 9:18pm
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gordon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 10:22am
Combining different texts I have come up with the following proposed guidelines.

I would appreciate your opinion:

Serious damage is any damage that seriously impairs the performance of a boat or her crew, or seriously diminishes the market value of the boat. Serious damage has occurred when the normal operation of the boat is compromised, and its structural integrity may be impaired. A prudent owner will repair serious damage promptly even though the boat may be able to continue to race, with or without temporary repairs. Repairs will generally require more than 3 hours work.


Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 10:21am
A rule 44 penalty ceases to be the applicable penalty for a boat when it is known that the boat caused serious damage - which may well be after boats have finished, or even, for instance in the case of big boats, much later.
In this context there is little debate regarding injury - partly because most sailors will retire if they cause injury, partly because causing any injury excludes the possibility of taking a penalty at the time of an incident. It does not have to be serious injury.

This question arose because of a competitor feeling aggrieved because we had DSQ'd him for aking a hole in another boat (28ft keelboats). He felt that juries at other class events would not have considered the damage serious and felt that we were "harsh" in not accepting that his turns were not a sufficient penalty.


Gordon
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