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Trying a Vareo |
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laser193713 
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Joined: 13 May 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 889 |
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 Topic: Trying a VareoPosted: 16 Nov 13 at 8:14am |
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The problem with the 100 is that people expected it to be an easy route in to performance sailing. It isn't! The boat is hard work, not surprising really if you take more than a second to look at it.
It's a great boat to sail, the first nationals was great racing for those who could hack the conditions. I think a 10-12 knot event would have done the class a favour because the likes of GRF instantly started sl*gging the boat off on here after being lapped on every race by people who actually hiked and sailed the boat properly. As for the capsize recovery... Firstly it takes some pretty dodgy sailing to capsize in the first place. Righting the boat never seemed a problem, getting in was easy if you let your kicker off all the way, you could just slide in over the side like any other boat! In many ways this forum has led to the demise of a great class, it influences the decisions of a huge number of people. I think it's terrible that anyone should sl*g off a British company and their product to a point where it harms sales. There are several guilty of it here, some purely in speculation! |
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JimC
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Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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Posted: 16 Nov 13 at 9:03am |
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Being sl*gged off here might, I suppose explain people not trying a boat, but I can't see it has much to do with people who've actually bought a boat deciding to move on in pretty short order.
If this forum had an influence I'd wonder if it were the other way - generating an artificial buzz about kite rigged being a next big thing. That might see folk piling in, then discovering that actually there are significant downsides in having the extra rag and it wasn't what they wanted to do after all. Edited by JimC - 16 Nov 13 at 9:51am |
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yellowwelly
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Joined: 24 May 13 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2003 |
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Posted: 16 Nov 13 at 9:11am |
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in defence of those who would be accused of 'sl*gging it off'....
Firstly, you are right people did expect it be an easy route to performance sailing. If we wanted to chortle upwind at Laser-like speeds, and have a kite for downwind blasting, well RS already had a boat for that. So yes, there is some reservation about upwind pace. Is it an improvement on the Vareo- yes, definitely, but given its gearing towards W/L, I'd have to question the added value for the RTC handicap club racer over its predecessor. The boat is hard work- absolutely.... but one quick look through the various design briefs, the initial thread on here and all the myriad of pre-sales market research should have produced something maybe a little less physical. Or alternatively the market has adjusted- an it really is an alternative for maturing ex-laser hiking bunnies. I loved mine most of the time, but truth is, hiking that hard, upwind and downwind soon took its toll on old injuries for a number of us. Some, it's true, didn't have the stones for it in the first place at all. But 4 races back to back at Parkstone was a tough one. I finished every race and have never been more knackered after anything else in my life. One look around the dinghy park and you could see half the fleet had packed up and didn't launch on Day 2- that's not a healthy sign, it wasn't 'that windy'. I think in retrospect we should have probably acknowledged that a bit more, and made some instant recommended changes- that 'double points, extra long 4th race' was a total disincentive to get your boat on the water for a second day. I once ran a comparison of how many of the initial RS100 nationals sailors returned to another class event.... it wasn't great. Regarding capsize recovery, I took the bruises to prove you are right. It is a bit techniquey... to right and get back in, but I agree not 'that difficult'. This is one of those things we're going to have to accept falls into the earlier part of my post- for some people it proved just too damn difficult. Graeme was not alone, nor can we cite body mass as an issue- other guys, built tall and strong, also suffered in this respect. On your final point- no one is sl*gging off a British Company. If you think some of the recent critique of the class split and poor turnouts is levied at RS Sailing, or their product, then you are mistaken. But in my opinion, the class association, and its voting members do seem rather premature in forcing through a fleet split- which appears to have had a detrimental affect on the numbers attending events. Now some will say that's their prerogative, however that is simply not true: Firstly, from the outset this multiple rig thing has been a curse on PY racing. I know better than most the lengths we went to to try and reinstate the multiple PYs- did I personally think it was the right thing to do? No... it's a bloody mess, and to Old Bob in his Streaker, he only sees an RS100, no matter what that list,c lass association or builder says. I used to think multiple rigs would only be a club racing issue, but a quick look at the RS100 forum and you can see the tone change somewhat- how many times do the race reports need to mention Huw going a bloody diet for next season? The really fast guys in 8.4s don't seem to have trouble beating him- over the water.... And secondly, the RS100 is an International Class now. Some would question the authenticity of this given the recent rule change- which is yet to be ratified by ISAF AIUI. When you make your class an ISAF class you are in effect, handing over its integrity over the International sailing community- which means ISAF, MNAs and their individual members all have a stake in your class. There are certain criteria that need to be adhered to, and without going over old ground, the 'Worlds' was on pretty shaky grounds. You can't have your cake and eat it. Finally, I think you are over-egging it a bit, saying this forum has led to the demise of a great class. It hasn't yet reached 'great class' credentials yet. It needs more bums on decks (well inner knees once you've slackened off the straps). Also the boost in initial UK sales was greatly fuelled by this forum- possibly to the detriment of other boats some would consider superior- including the husband of the RS Class Association secretary! Even then that's a little overplayed- the slow take up of D1s in the UK had more to do with exchange rates than anything else, pricing it well above comfortable for most .... it had first to market advantage, it was quicker on the water, seemingly more comfortable upwind and although not 'RS', Devoti still had heritage in the UK market with Finns and MPSs, so no one can consider it came from an unknown. Where FX wasn't an issue (mainland eurozone) the D1 outsold the 100 from the outset. Now FX is back to c.1.13-1.18, the price seems a lot more reasonable. I also don't think being honest about experiences should harm sales- that is the point of forum that was spawned from a consumer magazine. It should ultimately aid sales as the feedback from the market can assist a company in defining its product target demographic more effectively in the future. If the RS100 is guilty of trying (and failing) to be all things for all people with these multiple rigs, then it makes sense to focus on the 8.4 sail market- here at least, which would be the domain of <90kg ex Laser hiking bunny who expects a bit of pain and injury from their sport. If it's not guilty of that, cool beans- carry on as you were, we look forward to the class developing into that 'great class' you refer to, (although shouldn't that be plural, 'great classes') and having the credibility to justify THEIR INDIVIDUAL ISAF recognitions. Edited by yellowwelly - 16 Nov 13 at 9:21am |
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yellowwelly
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Joined: 24 May 13 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2003 |
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Posted: 16 Nov 13 at 9:17am |
I couldn't agree more Jim
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Telltale
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Joined: 03 May 12 Location: Cardiff Online Status: Offline Posts: 169 |
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Posted: 16 Nov 13 at 9:47am |
Saving server space.. Excellent repost that really summarises the early RS100 issues, there is one factor that led me to sell my RS100 as the welly mentioned it was the upwind physicality. Everone loved the downwind blast but you always had the feeling… oh no the bottom marks coming up! The fact that there are numerous current projects to build a single hander, from Peaky, Blaze 720, iGrmf and of course RS confirms it is still some sort of Holy Grail. If the RS 100 was what RS wanted, would they not have released a kite less version? +1 on that post
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blaze720
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Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635 |
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Posted: 16 Nov 13 at 10:53am |
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Careful .... I/We are NOT developing a single-hander for planned sale ! 'Echo' is simply a 'one-off' project to try out some new ideas and that is all.
It will be quite a lot different to what we know so far of known projects out there ... after all we could and will still no doubt assess some ideas very inexpensively simply by looking at the efforts of others. So no rush for us ...  ... Mike L. |
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rb_stretch
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Joined: 23 Aug 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 742 |
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Posted: 16 Nov 13 at 2:09pm |
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I'm under the impression that hiking has got harder for all boats due to introduction of things like hiking pants and the fact that hiking harder has filtered down from the super fit Olympians. I had a gap of nearly 30 years in hiking boats and was surprised how much further you need to get out the boat to be competitive these days. Unfortunately fitness often lets me down there.
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Daniel Holman
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Joined: 17 Nov 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 997 |
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Posted: 16 Nov 13 at 2:17pm |
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Trouble is even on wide boats, effort and fitness will pay when hiking. Apart from either trapezing (too much coordination /balletic) creating a dinghy class with guard rails a la sb20, it's always going to be the case.
Hiking doesn't cause injuries if training is progressive and done with correct form. I'm personally happy for a guy who beats me through superior athleticism. He has earned it. Eliminating this kinda goes back to the modern " no losers" culture. It's surprising how fit you can get off even 2 days a week sailing for a few months. |
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yellowwelly
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Joined: 24 May 13 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2003 |
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Posted: 16 Nov 13 at 3:07pm |
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I don't think anyone has a problem being beaten by athleticism, but for some there is line when an 8 grand (more now) toy stops being fun if you have to work it too hard. For some that line was crossed quite early on, maybe through bad design, bad boat choice, bad regatta management or simply bad fitness and bad expectations.
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Daniel Holman
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Joined: 17 Nov 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 997 |
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Posted: 16 Nov 13 at 5:09pm |
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I guess - whilst no apologist for the manufacturer there are ways and means to sail that sort of boat within oneself. It's a skill and not as quick as if you try hard, but definitely ways
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