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Sail Juice 2013-14 Series

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AndyWibroe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AndyWibroe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sail Juice 2013-14 Series
    Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 3:46pm

All,

As this thread has generated allot of interest regarding the RYA Portsmouth Yardstick scheme and some questions have been raised regarding the formulation of the RYA published Portsmouth Number list (PN List), I want to give the official RYA stance from the staff perspective.

A couple of notes on the PN List:

Firstly it is intended as a guide to help clubs set club handicaps for their racing, offering a starting point for classes that a club may not have previously had and to allow a club to observe national trends to supplement any adjustments the club may make. Clubs are actively encouraged to make handicap adjustments for their racing where they observe a difference in performance to the handicap being used. The best tool for aiding with handicap adjustment is using the PY Online website (www.pys.org.uk).

The PN list is set using return data from clubs which is collected every winter at the end of the sailing season (The deadline for returns this year is the 16th December). The returns are statistically analysed to form a document named the PY Digest. This document is used by the PYAG to set the PN list for the following season. The PYAG have a variety of policies regarding setting PN's. The most important of which is to stick with the data. If the data suggests an adjustment and there is nothing erroneous in the data (like a club recommending a PN of 500 for the Optimist etc) the PYAG will make such an adjustment. The main thing is to be able to back up any adjustment to the PN list with the data provided.

It has always been the policy (as far as I know, having gone through minutes of past meetings leading back to the days of the Langstone tables and Mr Milledge himself) to use return data from club racing only. As the staff member responsible for producing the PY digest I can hand on heart say that the Winter Championships SailJuice series does not make a return to be included within the PY Digest. The reason being is the PN list is aimed at club racing and as such should reflect returns from club racing, not one off championship events.

For those of you that have been involved in handicap setting for a long time you will have noticed that the PN list published by the RYA has become allot more dynamic in the last years. This is down to the data it is based on. Historically returns have been submitted by a club handicap officer/ sailing committee etc who have either carried out their own calculations or have used educated guess work to recommend changes to the RYA. Or in most cases not recommended change to the PN list as they have not wanted to be unpopular with their membership (which is understandable). This has led to the PY digest suggesting the same number as was published in the previous year. Subsequently PN’s on the PN list have not really moved. However In the last years, with advancements in the PY Online website the majority of clubs have adopted its use for benefiting many advantages. This has led to the returns the RYA receive being far more dynamic as they reflect statistical analysis on real club race results and as such the PY digest has recommended change in the PN list which the PYAG have followed.

Further to the PYAG’s operation regarding the PN list, the RYA as an Association has done allot of work in the last year regarding conflict of interest. This has led to a policy being approved by the RYA Council which looks to cover COI and ensure that all RYA committees can stand by their decisions, conflict free. Filtering down to the PYAG this formalises the practices the group already have. As it has already been mentioned any conflicts regarding classes sailed by members of the group are declared and those members do not comment when their class number is considered. Even if this was not done a number would not be able to be skewed in any one way as the returns data has to be followed regardless to personal opinion.

I hope that this has been informative and please feel free to email me directly should you have any comments or questions regarding the scheme as a whole, the PY Online website or information on making a return.

For more information please visit http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/Pages/portsmouthyardstick.aspx

You can also see a list of clubs that have submitted a return to date at the above link, make sure your club is in the list before the 16th December!

 

Andy



Edited by AndyWibroe - 11 Nov 13 at 3:57pm
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AndyWibroe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AndyWibroe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 3:47pm
FYI my email address is andy.wibroe@rya.org.uk
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gordon1277 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon1277 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 4:17pm
Hi
I must have missed the announcement what races are in the series this year?
Gordon
Phantom 1277 for sale on class association website due to recent redundancy.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 4:24pm
Thank you for taking the time to post on here, Andy. Good to hear what Chris and others have said re-inforced. I can't decide if excluding the results from big handicap events is good or bad - as you say, it is a club system, but on the other hand, raw data is raw data, and the boats are still the same (mostly!).

iiiiiiiiiiitick, I've had a good year too, I think!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 5:16pm
Forgive me if once again I've got the wrong end of the stick here, but what you're saying is exactly the opposite to my impression of the case, not only do the Sailjuice operate UDI, but absolutely none of their data features in the new year calculations?

Even given at least one committee member works on both committees, you'll have to pardon me for thinking that sounds a trifle absurd.

I know you chaps work really hard and I seriously don't want to come across as ungrateful, but...

The fact so many came to this thread so quickly in such a defensive position just further suggests to me there is an open sore here somewhere. I might have no idea, I may just be firing shots in the dark and indeed I sincerely apologise to you if you consider my suggestions are in anyway besmirching that had work. However the facts still remain as they are and that is that logic is not being applied here. Boats do not change speed if they are not altered, folks perception might, and we all know how perception can be altered by all manner of pressure.

I seriously think you need to consider a SDRHS measured system as a back up or a base to refer back to, then apply all your data to it for purposes of variation, because right now, it still looks pretty damned screwed up from where I'm standing.

Edited by iGRF - 11 Nov 13 at 5:18pm
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AlexM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AlexM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 5:34pm
I read it a bit differently i.e. SJ don't make a return to the PYS however the individual clubs "might" enter the data in for themselves. I certainly would use all the data if my club held an event.
Andy you and the team are a doing great job!
Alex

Is your club in the list?

The RYA would like to give thanks to the following clubs for already having submitted their PY Return:

Dovey Yacht Club, Fisherrow Yacht Club, Hertford County Yacht Club, Shirehampton Sailing Club & Strand on the green Sailing Club

The RYA would also like to thank the following clubs for using the PY Online website (www.pys.org.uk) to submit their return data to the RYA:

Ardleigh Sailing Club, Attenborough Sailing Club, Bala Sailing Club, Bartley Sailing Club, Blackwater Sailing Club, Blithfield Sailing Club, Bolton Sailing Club, Bosham Sailing Club, Bowmoor Sailing Club, Brightlingsea SC, Broadstairs Sailing Club, Broadwater Sailing Club, Budworth Sailing Club, Burghfield Sailing Club, Carsington Sailing Club, Chichester Yacht Club, Clevedon Sailing Club, Clyde Cruising Club, Combs Sailing Club, Cotswold Sailing Club, Crosby SC, Datchet Water Sailing Club, Delph Sailing Club, Desborough Sailing Club, Downs Sailing Club, Draycote Water Sailing Club, East Lothian Yacht Club, Elton Sailing Club, Emberton Park Sailing Club, Exe Sailing Club, Hastings and St Leonards Sailing Club, Herne Bay Sailing Club, Hickling Broad Sailing Club, Hollowell, Hornsea Sailing Club, Hunts Sailing Club, Island Barn Reservoir Sailing Club, Lancing Sailing Club, Largs sailing club, Leigh & Lowton Sailing Club, Lilliput Sailing Club, Littleton SC, Lyme Regis Sailing Club, Maidenhead Sailing Club, North Herts and East Beds Sailing Club, Northampton Sailing Club Oxford sailing Club, Paxton Lakes Sailing Club, Poole Yacht Club, Porthpean SC, Queen Mary Sailing Club, Redesmere Sailing Club, Redoubt Sailing Club, Ripon Sailing Club, Rotherham Sailing Club, Royal Findhorn Yacht Club, Royal Harwich Yacht Club, Rudyard Lake Sailing Club, Scaling Dam Sailing Club, Seafarers Sailing Club, Severn Sailing Club, Shotwick Lake SC, Silverwing Sailing club, Snettisham Beach Sailing Club, South Bank Sailing Club, South Shields Sailing Club, Southport Sailing Club, Sovereign Harbour Yacht Club, Starcross Yacht Club, Stewartby Water Sports Club, Tamworth SC, Tata Steel SC, Thornbury, Tonbridge Town Sailing Club, Twickenham Yacht Club, Up River Yacht Club, Upper Tamar Lake Sailing Club, West Oxfordshire Sailing Club, West Wittering Sailing Club, Weymouth Sailing Club, Whitefriars Sailing Club, Wilsonian Sailing Club,

(Club list as of 22/10/13)


Edited by AlexM - 11 Nov 13 at 5:53pm
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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 5:56pm
Chris made a similar point a while ago, Alex. That's why I thought the data still featured.

FWIW if I did race handicap, then I would be merciful that the system is the best it has ever been. The numbers move, the RYA are developing good practice, cronyism seems at the lowest it's ever been (Merlin's rocket?)

I do not see a magic box IRC / SCHRS formula creating anything less than a lot more controversy- at least the current system works on class averages, or would Graeme really suggest that individual boat carries an annual racing cert?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by yellowwelly

or would Graeme really suggest that individual boat carries an annual racing cert?


Me? Ever the commercial brain, would set up a system with an algorithm derived by some of our bright boys like Dan, Peaky and the like, I'd charge for it. You want to race your boat using the ultimate fair system, you buy your rating.
The rating would be carefully designed to take into account all those features, weight, length, waterline length, wetted area, sail area, mast height, beam and righting moment, crew weight etc All those things can be calculated these days, we're not still in the fifties taking baths in tin tubs in front of coal fires, even though most of the boats that get sailed date from back then.

Nothing stopping the PY anarchists working out a calculation to apply to convert to their system, but facts are better than fiction and every boat could have a fair start system and any boat of any age could enter it's data. New boats down to weight would (rightly) be advantaged so there would be less need to lipstick pigs and no-one would get to feel bad buying a new boat from an old class to be accused of being a bandit. There could be no bandits, the maths would just spit out a figure, bandits might evolve around the data driven system, but at the very least there would be the sure knowledge that's how it happened, not the way things are now, bumbling on from one ill defined mess to another.

And it could be self funding.

Edited by iGRF - 11 Nov 13 at 7:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 9:02pm
It is surprising if true that the sailjuice results don't get banged into pys. I do think though that the system is about as good as we are ever going to get, given that an algorithm that covers all dinghy classes would be as complicated as Navier-Stokes equations for cfd or even worse, and it would take you years just to complete a hand calc to verify one result. As for fixing a benchmark such as the Laser, what does it matter if their number moves as long as the racing is close.
My biggest beef with pys is still the RYA insistence that we all adjust numbers, even though as far as I can see, clubs don't really want to adjust, they want the national body to issue a definitive list.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 9:12pm
if clubs do enter SJ results into the system, then they will appear as (and be given the same weighting essentially) as if they're just another handicap race run by the club concerned, with some modified handicaps.

And, as said, the pursuits can't be factored in. PY can spit out pursuit start times, but can't take pursuit results an input.
-_
Al
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