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D-One - open sailmakers?

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timeintheboat View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 Sep 13 at 2:20pm
If the sails go open than they are either all the same (if that can be done) - in which case I suspect there will be little variation in price

Or they are built with parameters, which means the hassle of measurement and chequebook sailing with different sails for different conditions.

EIther way there will be a perceived "best performing sail" which will switch from time to time depending on how the house jockey does.

I'm a convert to one maker sails as long as the Laser experience is not repeated. 

The Fireflys have a good model which I am surpised has not been adopted by other classes. "We'll let you be our sole supplier but....."
Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 13 at 2:28pm
Why would open sail rules mean cheque book sailing?  Is it in the Solo, Phantom, GP14 etc.  I think you find that most people will gravitate to whatever sail is used by the top boys.  Like in any other class.  For me whats interesting about the whole thing  is that no truelly modern class has gone down the open sail route.  So in that respect if the changes come through, i think its fairly exciting.  I also think it would help with the longevity of the class a whole. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 13 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by Ruscoe

Why would open sail rules mean cheque book sailing?  

I understand my sail is £200 cheaper than the North ODL.  Not that I care, the customer service and support from HD is fantastic.  

When my sail needs replacing I will buy from HD again.  If I couldn't get an HD Sail, I'd get an Edge sail... again buying local being my primary criteria alongside performance, with cost coming in next.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 13 at 2:52pm
It comes from the world of black platinum cards doesn't it, they stopped using chequebooks eons ago, don't they have PA's for that, all those rich farm boys?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 13 at 3:03pm
The benefit of open sailmakers is that you get multiple companies sailing and promoting the class, which must lead to more interest.
But if the sail design is open, it will lead to spiralling costs with fancy clothes and battens. That might be okay in a 'premium' boat like the D1, but wouldn't suit all classes.
If the design is closed then it seems a bit pointless - the only differentiator is price and do you really want to buy from the guy who is prepared to live off the least amount of money (probably in China)?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 13 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by Peaky

The benefit of open sailmakers is that you get multiple companies sailing and promoting the class, which must lead to more interest.
But if the sail design is open, it will lead to spiralling costs with fancy clothes and battens. That might be okay in a 'premium' boat like the D1, but wouldn't suit all classes.
If the design is closed then it seems a bit pointless - the only differentiator is price and do you really want to buy from the guy who is prepared to live off the least amount of money (probably in China)?
Thats not strictly True Peaky.  I will try and get a copy of the rule discussion, but as i understand it the limits to what a sail maker can do would be limited byt the class rules and measurments.  Fancy battens and flashy cloth i suspect will be outlawed, the point is that the class can decide where to buy there sails from, so if someone want to buy sails stiched together in a backalley in china then fine.  Personally i wouldn't and would be happy to pay a premium for that.  But the choice is there, you would not be forced to do anything, which with current SMOD format you are.
 
There are pros and cons to it all, as with everything to do with this sport its all compromises.  The class and the membership need to decide amongst themselves whats best for the class now and for its long term future.  That is what will be the key driver, nothing to do with performance or anything else.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 13 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by Ruscoe

The class and the membership need to decide amongst themselves whats best for the class now and for its long term future.  That is what will be the key driver, nothing to do with performance or anything else.

They should, and partly the reason for starting this thread was for you guys to see a wider perspective before making your decisions.  There are some folks who won't be members as they are not owners... yet.  They might only be potential owners, and no doubt some will become members when second hand boats are within their financial justification.  Hopefully this thread has given you some differing opinions to complement your own class member views.  (I know Hamster lurks here sometimes... I bet he's all over this with burning fingers!)

Anyway- bloody well done for at least having a sensible debate and conversation about it.  However it turns out really won't matter- the Norths are pretty damn good from what I could see.  But insho, it would be nice to see it opened up with conventional rules and measurements, I think the positives far outweight the potential of negatives... but then I don't buy carbon battens for my Solo either, I think there are bigger issues for me to work on first.   

The important point is that you guys are listening, discussing, consulting and changing if desired.  I remember being impressed that Luca had the balls to change the deck moulding, it seems the customers have got some of that spirit about them too... good show chaps.  Good luck and I hope you get some nice wind in Atersee.  





Edited by yellowwelly - 05 Sep 13 at 3:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 13 at 3:27pm
I'm sure one of the reasons the Solo, FB, Merlin etc continue to be popular is that the commercial interests of the sailmakers, mast makers etc keep the class vibrant with new ideas and steady, continuous progress. If the Solo was stuck preserved in 1973 mode, it would surely be obsolete now.

Does the D1 proposal cover foils too?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 13 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by Peaky

I'm sure one of the reasons the Solo, FB, Merlin etc continue to be popular is that the commercial interests of the sailmakers, mast makers etc keep the class vibrant with new ideas and steady, continuous progress. If the Solo was stuck preserved in 1973 mode, it would surely be obsolete now. 

almost certainly!!!  Most SMODs seem to have a finite lifecycle, the only ones which seem to buck the trends are the ones with institutional support e.g. Laser and the kid's RS boats.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 13 at 3:46pm
The only point I can see for having different manufactures is to have different cuts out otherwise if you have very rigid rules on the cut of the sail they will all have to be the same. Then it's down to price of materials, assembly costs and profit. You'd be better off lobbying north to reduce their price.

If you allow different cuts then you are using the sail to cater for different weight ranges which defeats the point of the weight equalisation wing positions. Perhaps vote for it within a set of parameters and get rid of the extra fittings on the floor and fix the wings in one place.

I like the option of different sailmakers as it brings options to sailors across the weight ranges. Certainly the phantom wouldn't have taken off a few years back if the sails were strict one design and only cut for fatties.

I certainly hope that the class get this right as is growing nicely as it is and the last thing it needs is a shot in the foot. Good luck in your decision making.
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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