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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Wiki Sail by GRF
    Posted: 27 Mar 13 at 10:17am
By the time the wind is so light as to be drifting, the skills of the sailor in that kind of weather, and the ability to concentrate when all about you are dreaming of beer, is far more important than whether you have a Supernova or a Laser under you.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 13 at 10:28am
Originally posted by Rupert

By the time the wind is so light as to be drifting, the skills of the sailor in that kind of weather,

Dunno, I've always been a pretty rubbish sailor in drifters, maybe compounded by sailing the wrong boats, but when it gets really light my little Skol (early 70s wide Int Moth) suddenly starts overtaking Lasers in spite of being hopelessly overloaded with excess crew waistline
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 13 at 10:38am
Originally posted by Rupert


So, If I'm doing all this with a pencil and paper and cardboard models, what sort of info do you think people with CAD programmes are able to get?


Stuff like this..

Draft Amidsh. m     0.084
Displacement kg     155
Heel degrees     0°
Draft at FP m     0.084
Draft at AP m     0.084
Draft at LCF m     0.082
Trim m     0
WL Length m     4.125
WL Beam m     1.9
Wetted Area m^2     4.534
Waterpl. Area m^2     4.421
Prismatic Coeff.     0.481
Block Coeff.     0.346
Midship Area Coeff.     0.812
Waterpl. Area Coeff.     0.778
LCB to Amidsh. m     0.130 Aft
LCF to Amidsh. m     0.122 Fwd
KB m     0.063
KG m     0
BMt m     8.95
BML m     25.081
GMt m     9.013
GML m     25.144
KMt m     9.013
KML m     25.144
TPc Tonne/cm     0.045
MTc Tonne.m     1.#IO
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 13 at 10:40am
Originally posted by iGRF

1)Actually I'm not a retailer, haven't been since the days we took over Racing Sailboats store when it was in Battersea Park Road and we all used to fling ourselves on the floor spread eagle rather than have to go and serve GP14 sailors counting out their loose change and haggling over the price and length of a bit of chord.
2)You're wrong not to want to know stuff like this, it explains lots of things, like why a Supernova is overtaking you in your Laser in light air, when the volume displacement becomes more important than sail size, knowing rather than having your confidence sapped and thinking you're doing something else wrong.
I'd have thought people who write sailing books would also be inclined to listen, just in case there might be something they've missed. I 'knew it all' back in 1981, didn't stop me still listening, and I can't help it if you're world is all screwed up.

1. That's interesting. Those were the days. My bro was at Ossies/RS in Kingston. Otherwise retailer, businessman, whatever, the point remains 
2. As James says. Plus, I've done more than enough miles to know whether I am happy with the way I am performing on a certain day, or otherwise. I measure myself against others of course, but primarily i benchmark myself. On days that favour say the phantoms, I don't look to excuses about displacement or whatever, I just double my efforts to sail better than them and win anyway. It's actually in the book here, thanks for the cue. Equally, when the conditions suit me, I don't suddenly relax or start thinking I am a sailing god- instead, the pressure comes on to maximise the benefit. This is being a racer.
3. I am listening. I've not waded in about jib/main slots so much, or fighter/freighter wing profiles because I am willing to listen in case I can learn something. But I've read Twiname, seen the flow diagrams, read Bethwaite, raced and learned for 40+ years and remain unconvinced as yet that you have anything that will change the way I look to configure a jib slot or sail set up and give me extra boat speed. If I do, I'll let you know, but its not looking good so far in the years I've been reading your quest.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 13 at 10:43am
Dude you sail an RS100 on a puddle, what more can I say?

Edited by iGRF - 27 Mar 13 at 10:44am
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alstorer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 13 at 10:47am
You do, in a roundabout way, make a good point- empty weight when fully rigged is often enormously difficult to get an accurate number for for many classes. Actual built weights can vary scandously as well- from what I remember from my short period in ISOs, they get quoted as being 100kg hull weight (so no rigging, mas, boom etc) but the very earlist were down at 95kg when dryied out and the final ones that White Formula built were closer to 110kg. That's a huge varience in what was supposed to be a one design class where all baots were identical.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 13 at 11:05am
The light air thing, does always pre suppose that, that volume/displacement is contained and in a light wind efficient 'curve and rocker' shape. Flat surfaces drag, everyone knows that, but flat surface a) with 300 litres will be faster than the same flat surface b)with 200 litres in light air on inland water.

So it would follow, if you took a Laser Hull, cut it in half laterally along the gunwale, inserted a couple of inches, then reattached the deck and upper gunwale, would you have a faster boat in lighter air which would support heavier sailors, and would it be less susceptible to performance difference in sea water over fresh, that crudely explains my point. Would it be more efficient than say that Supernova or a Firefly type hull in light weather? Probably not, would it be faster than another Laser with an identically skilled sailor of the same weight, I say yes it would, up until the point when the sail needs to be depowered.

That is the bones of my argument re whatever you want to call it, volume, buoyancy or displacement.

Now I need to do some work for a bit, flame a way...

Edited by iGRF - 27 Mar 13 at 11:06am
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 13 at 11:12am
Originally posted by iGRF

Dude you sail an RS100 on a puddle, what more can I say?

Yup, unashamedly. And bloody good fun it is too. 

having done the Autumn series at HISC, I learned the sailing and racing is far more full on and intense at our place. And I sail on the circuit without getting chewed up and spat out. Remember the light air practice day at Poole in yours?

I thought you were learning the joy of puddles anyway?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 13 at 11:15am
Originally posted by iGRF



So it would follow, if you took a Laser Hull, cut it in half laterally along the gunwale, inserted a couple of inches, then reattached the deck and upper gunwale, would you have a faster boat in lighter air which would support heavier sailors, and would it be less susceptible to performance difference in sea water over fresh, that crudely explains my point. Would it be more efficient than say that Supernova or a Firefly type hull in light weather? Probably not, would it be faster than another Laser with an identically skilled sailor of the same weight, I say yes it would, up until the point when the sail needs to be depowered.


I can scarce believe what I am reading.  Are you seriously suggesting that raising the freeboard of a Laser by adding a horizontal strip of material the length of the boat just below the gunwale to raise the deck would improve performance in light airs? And I take it we're talking straight-line speed, not roll tacking etc.?

Neglecting the weight you'd add by doing so, how does adding structure above the waterline affect the drag of the hull at low speeds?  How can it affect skin friction drag, form drag or wave-making drag?  The water won't even 'see' the extra strip.

Please tell me you meant something else.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 13 at 11:22am
I am and in the real world, would agree wholeheartedly and thoroughly recommend anyone sailing on confined water to anyone wanting to learn, but you're not anyone, you are 'know it all' book writer that needs the piss extracting from himself at every turn.

I also disagree with some of what you wrote in that bit.

I think it's healthy to want to win, I also like to curse and shout obscenities when things go wrong, it is a psychological release not available to us in the office or home and part of what some of us enjoy in the cut and thrust of competition and there is a will to win, there is even a 'zone' you can get into that will deliver it, once you are fully capable with both elements (boat speed fitness and tactical) fully dialled. Most of us over a certain age know we'll never again see it, but to deny it exists is a mistake. (My opinion obviously again not fact, but I'm not writing it in a book and publishing it as fact. Then selling it to folk )
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