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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 Jan 12 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

with plenty of data ( in higher average wind strength ), just not in the Uk. Which should make the number go up not down!


On the other hand the Farr ought to be a sight faster upwind on flat water on UK reservoirs than in the chop at Wellington.

I think we should accept that its inevitable that boats in small numbers without much data will be harshly handicapped. After all if the organisers err on the harsh side only that one boat is disadvantaged. If they err on the genrous side the every other boat in the race is disadvantaged.

And the odd 10 or 15 points here and there doesn't really make that much difference. Not like the time we turned up at H*****g I*****d to be told we had 100 points off our handicap "because I heard you cleaned up at Stokes Bay last month and I didn't want it happening here".
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Posts: 2965 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 12 at 1:53pm
Dear Daryl

I’ve spoken to other members of our Organising Committee, and done a little research around handicaps currently being applied to the Farr 3.7 in the southern hemisphere. As a result of this, we’ve decided to allocate a provisional handicap of 1015 for the Grand Prix. As I’m sure you will understand, we are particularly concerned that decisions such as this are fair to other classes with more robust handicaps.

Where a class has limited data on which to base a handicap, our practice is to set a tough challenge in the first instance and to review the handicap in the light of results actually achieved. The way to improve the accuracy of your handicap is, of course, to race in large events so that the data can be properly analysed at the end of the series and the handicap revised accordingly.

You may wish to note that, this year, the Grand Prix forms part of a national winter handicap series (the Sailjuice Global Warmup): even if you don’t plan to compete in events other than the Grand Prix, we have nevertheless agreed with the other host clubs to adopt a common handicapping system this year, so we do have to take their views and practices into account.

I do hope that you will come and support both the Grand Prix and the other Warmup events and look forward to meeting you in the bar afterwards.

Regards


GWSC Racing Committee

This is the communications from GWSC. We didn't end up going to the event so ended the communications. I didn't get a reply from QMSC. The number they gave (1006) was given when the boat was pre entered.

But you are correct I didn't send them data. I expected to be consulted and provide more information if required. But as Jim said it is down to the race committee to do the research. The contacts are available. The lack of contact suggested to me they were doing that. I've got a business to run so it's not the only thing on the to do list. And anyway I would have expected the number to be at least 1015 due to the content of the email above. Not reduced further. WHY?

Like I said I'm just interested in what method the race committee used to reduce that number. I'm guessing it's the...'he must be underestimating the boats speed like they all do, chop him a few points to make sure'... method. WARNING CYNICAL STATEMENT: "It just shows that today it doesn't pay to be honest.'

And my further point is that using that 'as of yet unconfirmed method' you start to invalidate the results because every boats starting position interacts with all the others.
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Posts: 241 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fudheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 12 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by Peter Barton

Originally posted by richcritch

Is it now completely pointless handicap racing? Is it not a lottery....Some boats..labeled bandits takes away any glory..Others have frustrating times ...rarely winning. ..PY has been completely warped ...handicaps not moving in line... not many fleets...sailing has killed itself? Frustration will lead people to quit and effectively ruin the sport?
 
Wow, the end of the world! 
I think 302 happy boats on Saturday would suggest otherwise. Beside the racing it was a fantastic parade of sail and I am sure the envy of worldwide dinghy sailing. I would love an aerial photograph of the lake taken at 1.20pm!
 
Seriously, I think you need.........a Moth! Not for handicap racing, just for blasting for the pure enjoyment of the sport and to regain your love. And it will take years off you!
 
I applaud the hard work and pro-activity of the Great Lakes group, QM and Sailjuice. The current system has been moaned about for years in that the numbers did not react quickly enough or move by enough when they did react. They wont please all the people all the time (they wont give Moths the same handicap as Toppers when it is less than 8kn....and we're not asking!) but I think they have had a very good stab under their stated objectives and the results show it.
 
It was a good wind (breezy, but not too breezy) and course (more reaching than normal due to wind dirn) for the Moths. Every dog has its day...isn't that uncertainty part of what makes it so very interesting?
+1 .
why sail if you don't enjoy it? 
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......
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Posts: 350 		Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 12 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by fudheid

Originally posted by Peter Barton

Originally posted by richcritch

Is it now completely pointless handicap racing? Is it not a lottery....Some boats..labeled bandits takes away any glory..Others have frustrating times ...rarely winning. ..PY has been completely warped ...handicaps not moving in line... not many fleets...sailing has killed itself? Frustration will lead people to quit and effectively ruin the sport?
 
Wow, the end of the world! 
I think 302 happy boats on Saturday would suggest otherwise. Beside the racing it was a fantastic parade of sail and I am sure the envy of worldwide dinghy sailing. I would love an aerial photograph of the lake taken at 1.20pm!
 
Seriously, I think you need.........a Moth! Not for handicap racing, just for blasting for the pure enjoyment of the sport and to regain your love. And it will take years off you!
 
I applaud the hard work and pro-activity of the Great Lakes group, QM and Sailjuice. The current system has been moaned about for years in that the numbers did not react quickly enough or move by enough when they did react. They wont please all the people all the time (they wont give Moths the same handicap as Toppers when it is less than 8kn....and we're not asking!) but I think they have had a very good stab under their stated objectives and the results show it.
 
It was a good wind (breezy, but not too breezy) and course (more reaching than normal due to wind dirn) for the Moths. Every dog has its day...isn't that uncertainty part of what makes it so very interesting?
+1 .
why sail if you don't enjoy it? 
its not that easy - I could write an entire essay on that one
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rodney View Drop Down
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Posts: 915 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rodney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 12 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by richcritch

Is it now completely pointless handicap racing? Is it not a lottery of course and wind strength? The results of the bloody Mary being a perfect example. Some boats that do well in all conditions labeled bandits takes away any glory sailing them. Others that only do well in certain winds have frustrating times in all others while rarely winning. Not only that the PY has been completely warped by old boats allowing development and handicaps not moving in line.

And with so many classes and not many fleets, could it be argued that sailing has killed itself? Frustration will lead people to quit and effectively ruin the sport?

I'm being very cynical (even for me!) and but I just wondered other people's views.


This is all a bit sad  Cry

The opportunity to handicap race at my first club is probably the reason that I am still sailing (when I get the opportunity).  I was able to set goals in my Finn including trying to beat some of the fleet of Minisails.  As my skill improved I was able to raise the bar and try to beat Enterprises and so my early sailing life went on.  I am guessing that many people who are new to sailing/racing are pleased to be able to race against someone even if they are, on paper, much faster. 

For me handicap racing has always been just fun.  It's great to sail with other classes from time to time but should not be taken too seriously - if you want to take your racing seriously then save that for class racing.  At the risk of repeating myself, from a previous post, the handicap system tends only to work across a series and one off events are bound to favour one class or another.  

Last year (edit, whoops, sorry in 2010) I did the Draycote Dash and had a great weekend in spite of the cold, being locked out of the club for half an hour and nearly missing out on the fantastic dinner they laid on and to cap it all getting a lousy result.  Oh, I forgot, packing up in the dark...   My boat for the weekend was not suited to the courses that were set but did it matter?  Not a bit as I had spent a weekend's sailing with a friendly crowd who all seemed to enjoy themselves as much as I did.

I hope that I can make at least one of the Winter Handicap events this year but sadly other demands on my time may prevent this.



Edited by rodney - 10 Jan 12 at 2:56pm
Rodney Cobb
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marke View Drop Down
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Posts: 211 		Post Options Post Options   Quote marke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 12 at 3:05pm
Jack

re: "I've got a business to run so it's not the only thing on the to do list"

I'm just guessing here - but I expect the GWSC and QMSC sailing committees also have businesses to run, people to teach, reports to write and families to support.  My guess is that doing the time-consuming PY data analysis for every new boat that might enter their event struggles to make it on to their "to do" list as well.  I think they should all get our thanks for the mountains of work they must have put in to get the SJ numbers aligned across all the data they did use.  As others have said - its early days - but it looks to be working.

Now if the CA who stand to benefit from the analysis could do it and present it as a short one-pager it might add more weight to your request for the handicap you think would be fairer.  Just a thought Wink


Edited by marke - 10 Jan 12 at 3:09pm
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Posts: 725 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ex laser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 12 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by rodney


The opportunity to handicap race at my first club is probably the reason that I am still sailing (when I get the opportunity).  I was able to set goals in my Finn including trying to beat some of the fleet of Minisails.  As my skill improved I was able to raise the bar and try to beat Enterprises and so my early sailing life went on.  I am guessing that many people who are new to sailing/racing are pleased to be able to race against someone even if they are, on paper, much faster. 

For me handicap racing has always been just fun.  It's great to sail with other classes from time to time but should not be taken too seriously - if you want to take your racing seriously then save that for class racing.  At the risk of repeating myself, from a previous post, the handicap system tends only to work across a series and one off events are bound to favour one class or another.  

Last year (edit, whoops, sorry in 2010) I did the Draycote Dash and had a great weekend in spite of the cold, being locked out of the club for half an hour and nearly missing out on the fantastic dinner they laid on and to cap it all getting a lousy result.  Oh, I forgot, packing up in the dark...   My boat for the weekend was not suited to the courses that were set but did it matter?  Not a bit as I had spent a weekend's sailing with a friendly crowd who all seemed to enjoy themselves as much as I did.

I hope that I can make at least one of the Winter Handicap events this year but sadly other demands on my time may prevent this.




+1 spot on!!!! Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 12 at 3:34pm
I notice the chap that started the thread hasn't responded to any of the responses. Why does this happen so often?
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 12 at 3:38pm
I tend to agree with Rodney on this. I'm off to the Steamer this weekend, wasn't going to bother as I have no chance anyway and the SJ PY is screwing me even further, but I thought why not? Should be a good day out, nice yot, meet up with old friends I haven't seen for far too long, meet some new ones (possibly) be far too competitive until I realise I'm a bit silly and then hope theres enough wind to enjoy a good blast. I shall have my own private battle with the other phants and have a good look at the other boats and what's around me. I can't do that in a fleet race. I love handicap racing even though the PY system sometimes favours me sometimes doesn't.
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 12 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by alstorer

I notice the chap that started the thread hasn't responded to any of the responses. Why does this happen so often?


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