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Blaze vs Laser Comparison

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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Blaze vs Laser Comparison
    Posted: 11 Nov 11 at 7:29am
Originally posted by SimonW99

If you put the punk or a phantom on a choppy sea in 20+ knots my money would be firmly on Mike L in his blaze having finished the race and put the covers on whilst the phantom and the punk were busy falling over and submarining. Take the recent Phantom nationals. Blowing nearly 20knots and the majority of the fleet stayed in the bar.

Sorry to say Simon, but what a load of old cobblers. At the last nationals at Lyme only a few were in the bar, several went for a walk, and some went for lunch elsewhere. 

There are various reasons why "the majority" didn't sail, or gave up but one contributing factor is down to the ability of the sailors themselves. The Phantom is predominently sailed on flat stuff and also by a lot of people ranging from those who struggle sailing through to world champions. In the conditions that prevailed on the sat at the nats then it was the lower end of the fleet that didn't go out feeling that their ability didn't match the conditions. I would say that this is not an indicator of the boat but the helm. That will happen in any class, even the Blaze. I honestly can say that I don't think that the majority of the Blaze fleet would have been out there either. The top end of the fleet enjoyed damn good racing with a good blast as well thrown in. Having sailed in the first race I can also say that the boat does not submarine easily even though I hit the back of several waves that I shouldn't have. Also it did feel much more than 20 knots, but I didn't have an anemometer so I'll have to bow to your judgement there.

However it should be said that the Blaze will stuff the Phantom, and I guess Laser too when there is a good stretch of water with a good wind, otherwise the others will beat it.

Mike L - I reckon you could still give Andy Couch a run for his money, honest guv.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 11 at 8:04am
Originally posted by No. 5

I suspect part of the reason for the Laser and Blaze handicaps being fairly close is that they are the same(ish) length and when running or in sub-planing conditions will go at much the same speed. However, I much prefer sailing my Blaze to a Laser and given a half decent breeze the Blaze is considerably quicker.


I thinks the real reason. I find it hard to get away from Mike in my 600 I sub planing conditions downwind - some times he gaps me too, I'm not the worst by far,just how it is. I wouldn't read too much in to a single handicaps being applied in all conditions.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 11 at 8:29am
The trouble with this topic is that you guys are trying to evaluate a small difference - between the relative speeds of the boats - which is masked by a big difference - the relative speeds of the helms. That's not likely to work out well.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 11 at 8:54am
Maxibuddah

I think you can assume when I said they were back in the bar it was a term meaning that they were not out racing, wasn't a reflection of the fact that they might be doing a gastro tour of Dorset. However, assuming that they didn't drive all the way to a Nationals just to take in the local scenery, then the weather may have played a part in their decision to stay onshore. 

My comment on submarining was for dans punk which from the vids I have seen and having looked at the boat, would suggest that in the conditions I would describe it wouldn't keep the bow up above a strong chop. My comments were far from critical about the phantom fleet or the boat at all, it is a great boat and a very strong fleet, but for many average club sailors it carries too much sail for open sea sailing in big waves and a breeze. That doesn't mean the top guys can't manage it and dont enjoy it in such conditions. My point, which you only reinforce, is that in the conditions described the blaze would probably walk away when sailed by comparative sailors because - roughly same sail area, more freeboard and much more leverage. As I said, Different boats suit different sailors in different conditions, which I doubt anyone would disagree with.

I would love to sail a phantom, but as I sail in such conditions regularly and am but an average club sailor, the boat is over canvassed. The blaze on the other hand is 'easier' in such conditions and therefore more attainable as well as faster. On an inland pond course or in less demanding conditions I suspect most would agree that a well sailed Phantom is almost unbeatable except by the odd boat with an out of date handicap Big smile

Sorry to say Simon, but what a load of old cobblers. At the last nationals at Lyme only a few were in the bar, several went for a walk, and some went for lunch elsewhere
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 11 at 9:08am
that bit was definitely tongue in cheek Simon. Yes it was the weather as such that put people off, but mostly it was the waves. 4-8' at 4 second intervals is a bit hairy for pondy's whatever they sail. The Sunday was cancelled cos the waves were crashing over the Cobb, which is a good barometer of it being too rough. My point was that those conditions would be too rough for the average sailor in any class, whether it be Blaze or Laser. At least with a Laser it is easy to get up again.

I did also make the point that the Blaze is blindingly quick in a blow when there is some space to get going. The Phantom was never designed for these conditions.

As for the Laser versus the Blaze, well I've never sailed a blaze but sailed against them in a lot of conditions. The laser is unfortunately average in all conditions whereas the Blaze is fast in wind and not when it ain't, so the PY would even out...that is presuming that the sailors are of equal standard.

Edited by maxibuddah - 11 Nov 11 at 9:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon1277 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 11 at 9:18am
Hi Simon
I would describe myself as an average club sailor who was out on Saturday at the Nationals and would happily have done all three races but for putting a whole in my boat by hitting somebody in the second. The difference between me and Maxi is that I sail on the Solent all the time so am used to over 20knts WITH WAVES ( not quite the same as at Lyme) and trust me it was well over a lot of the time. I would expect Maxi to beat me hollow in any other conditions.

To even things up as Mike may be feeling age is against him with Andy Couch we could suggest Lawrence who won two races on the Saturday and also lives nearer Sheppy. Only fooling with you Mike as I have no idea how old you are.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 11 at 9:43am
I think I'll just chip in here, my Pal Barry who carried on his Phantom quest and who has come on leaps and bounds in his sailing as mine has gone into reverse with my constant boat hopping, anyway our water as you all know from my constant harping on about it is about as bad a sea as anyone could wish for, steep high frequency short wavelength Channel Chop, which, the Phantom actually deals with better than the Blaze.
In our water, off wind the Blaze in a breeze is a white knuckle get right back on the label ride and still it'll plough in, sure it's fast, but it also slows down quite dramatically ploughing into the back of the next wave so has to be sailed zig zag down waves.
They are an evenly matched pair of boats, with the Blaze favouring my weight (the guy I sold it to is heavy and has the racks set on their inboard setting whereas I'm fully out to the max and still can't quite cope when it's breezy and the Phantom suits Barrys weight (he's North of 90 kgs), but off wind us Blazers are battling to keep the nose up and he's just sat there creaming along.

Now I'm sure it's a different tale on estuary or inland big res water where the Blaze will quite probably notch up another gear as apparent wind builds and the Phantoms rocker that serves it well in the light wind provides dubious water release and tail squat when the winds right up, but you can't have everything, well not until you try the perfect boat, but it aint quite finished yet, when it is neither the Blaze or the Phantom will get a look in, nor will many other single hand sit downs for that matter.

But if there were a prize at our club for the two most improved sailors since their fresh boat acquisition it would be Barry & Pete the Phantom and Blaze sailors and their new found keenness to race is quite refreshing, so to my mind both boats get a thumbs up, in fact all other single handers should be scrapped, well all except the one more I have in mind.


Edited by G.R.F. - 11 Nov 11 at 9:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 11 at 9:50am
Guys- half the fleet staying ashore? It's a crew skill thing I'm afraid... half the RS100 fleet stayed ashore for the second day at Parkstone in 2010, that wasn't even proper sea, just a bit harbour chop and 20-odd knots, but more than enough to send folk north for an early bath. Even the mighty Grumpf pulled out some tall story about a locked warehouse and an impending bike show to scuttle off defeated and ashamed... (actually he was just trying to tame his cougar away from the RS workshop boys iirc)

One of my few regrets was never taking a Phantom AWAY from a puddle, I reckon on some nice rollers and steady breeze it would be an amazing boat to sail- a bit old school, but still fantastic steering around the waves rather than stuffing and slaming a KWSB like a yoof squad wannabe.



Edited by rogue - 11 Nov 11 at 10:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 11 at 9:54am
Parkstone? Parkstone there wasn't a wave in site it's a puddle and it wasn't that windy I had work to do and my boat was f**ked..
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 11 at 10:21am
Q ?  .... off wind the Blaze in a breeze is a white knuckle get right back on the label ride and still it'll plough in, sure it's fast, but it also slows down quite dramatically ploughing into the back of the next wave so has to be sailed zig zag down waves .....

A. Technique, and much of it common to many classes  ...  the boat is fantastic in waves.

So try one etc .....

Mike L.
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