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LEE BOW EFFECT

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sargesail View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: LEE BOW EFFECT
    Posted: 11 Oct 11 at 9:50pm
I find myself in two minds on this.

I believe that the tide is a moving carpet and that it should make no difference whether the tide is on my lee or weather bow.

But I find that I still use lee bow theory to gain an advantage - given equal other factors I will take the lee bow in the stronger tide.  Unless other factors come in to play I have never known this fail.

And yet I have just spent half an hour doing the vectors to comprehensively proof I'm talking rubbish!

But that doesn't help me explain why it feels so much faster when I put the tide on the lee bow with a liitle squeeze!

AAAAARRRRGGGGHHH!

But I observe that 
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 11 at 10:26pm
If you concentrate really hard, and put that extra effort into hiking, to get the bow up so that you can "take the lee bow", then you might find yourself sailing higher at the same speed as your competitors. 

Of course, if you're sailing inland in zero current, and concentrate really hard, and put extra effort into hiking, so that you're pointing higher than your opposition but going the same speed as them, then you might just find yourself doing pretty well also. 

A speed or height advantage make things much easier. Speed AND height..... 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 12:24am
Originally posted by sargesail



But I find that I still use lee bow theory to gain an advantage - given equal other factors I will take the lee bow in the stronger tide. 

This makes sense without any magical effect. You will get a lifting windshift from a lee-bow tide compared to sailing in no, or less tide. So it makes sense to sail with the tide on the lee bow when you are in the stronger tide, and then to sail on the other, headed tack when you are in less tide.

But this is a result of sailing in tide which is uneven across the course. All you are doing is, in effect, playing the shifts as you experience them. If the tide is the same strength everywhere (actually rarely the case in practice) it makes no difference which tack you take first.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 8:03am
Maniac,

Except that when you try and prove that it doesn't work.

And again I agree with your last point - but that doesn't explain why in those circumstances one "feels" the lee bow effect.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rockhopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 8:14am
The tide at our place is never the same strengh over the course we have rips when the ground is say five six feet shallow than other areas creating more tide closer to the shore you get less tide and to top it all off on the back of the pier the tide goes the opposite way Shocked
It does take a while to learn the tides and how and when to use the lew bow effect but ti does work wonders in three knots of tide
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Pierre View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Pierre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 8:15am
Can someone please draw me a picture?

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osproject View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote osproject Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 8:58am
You wont physically point higher. You can only sail as high as your sails will let you. But your COG will be higher. Try sailing in 7knots of tide and see what happens on opposite tacks. :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote didlydon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 9:13am
Would I be right in saying that you'd get extra "lift" on one tack with the action of the additional tide flow over the foils pulling them to windward? Whereas, on the other tack, you wouldn't cos the tide will be pushing you away?  We need some sort of animation / pictures to show this.... anybody? Ermm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 9:49am

Definition: "The lee-bow effect" is a term used to describe what may or may not happen when sailing directly into tide upwind and what may or may not happen if you pinch up to put the tide on your lee bow ... assume linear tidal flow over the area.

Some silly gibbons think something magical happens if you pinch up and have the tide on the lee bow as to opposed to footing off and having it on the weather bow. These are the same people who are deluded enough to try and invent perpetual motion machines  Wink

Clever monkeys like JimC and Mr. Perry know how to add vectors and know it does not exist.

Now of course it is a jungle out there and clever monkeys know that the tide is often stronger or weaker in different places and taking advantage of this can make huge differences but this is not some juju magic of the mythical leebow effect ...

I think Perry's mid ocean example should be able to be understood be even the most feeble minded gibbons.




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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 4:15pm
OK just for the slow (and probably ever so slightly retarded) I will explain why, even in a constant tide, it is better to take the lee bow first, if it is on offer.

Read any tactical book, they'll all explain about getting away in clean air at the start, and as I used to say during those heady days when people would queue for hours just to hear me speak on the subject, in a 60 strong start line, make any kind of mistake at the gun and potentially you can lose 59 places in one seconds hesitation, make that same mistake at the weather mark and you might not even lose one place.

So at the start there are two tacks you can take (assuming you can get out the back door of the pin end) there is say a 5 knot cross tide (And ignoring any time/tidal calculation you might have made re time of the beat and virtual position of the weather mark in relation to the end of the line you start at.) there is only 5knots true wind, so on the one tack lets say starboard with the tide going right to left across the course, with the water heading your way you'll be going down tide at five knots and <insert appropriate tide v wind calculation to establish boat speed over the water> say six knots over the water, whereas on the other tack you'll be maintaining station over the bottom but making windward ground at <insert calculation of combined forces of five knots tide and five knots wind, say nine knots, so those elements of the fleet that have taken the down tide tack first will be travelling faster over the bottom sideways, but slower through the water toward the weather mark than the boats that take the uptide tack initially, they move slower sideways over the bottom but make ground to weather and over the water faster, so at the half way mark are closer to their final destination.

OK, logic says yeah but.. the reverse will be true in the second leg, but hey you're a tactical racer, where would you rather be at the half way mark? And how many races have you ever experienced where conditions remain exactly constant throughout an entire beat, never mind the whole race.

Sure in deep water Ocean racing with miles of mind numbing boredom going on, it may make no odds, but this is about the cut and thrust of small boat tactical division by error and he who makes least wins..

I know what I'd do.


Edited by G.R.F. - 12 Oct 11 at 7:42pm
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