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tornado435 View Drop Down
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Posts: 196 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tornado435 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Dart HAWK Racing
    Posted: 19 Sep 06 at 3:58pm
Not many Hurricanes made it to the states and certainly no new ones in the last 8 years.
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Port End Flyer View Drop Down
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Posts: 61 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Port End Flyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 06 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by Worthy

Originally posted by Port End Flyer

But over here the F18’s want to develop and still keep the nice safe 691 they had as a Hawk, can’t be right can it?


so I am really stuggling to see why you are getting so wound up.

Sorry didn’t think I was!  But as usual you know best?   Thought this was a discussion forum where discussions take place online?   I feel that I and everybody else is entitled to their opinion if that is OK with you?

I thought we were all having a discussion regarding the PY of a Dart Hawk for lostatsea who was interested in buying a Hawk, F18 or other Cat to race at his/her club under PY, that has not altered! You mention that it is the same for Int 14 & Int Moth etc, clearly they do not race under SCHRS nor are they Primary or Secondary yardsticks therefore their PY will alter with development and their subsequent results via returns to the RYA. My point was that this has not happened to the F18 since the Hawk’s time therefore 691 maybe correct for the Hawk but in my opinion it is not correct for all F18’s should they race under PY.
Close your eyes and "GO FOR IT!" What else do we pay insurance premiums for?
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Worthy View Drop Down
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Posts: 511 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Worthy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 06 at 4:18pm
Originally posted by Port End Flyer

Sorry didn’t think I was!  But as usual you know best?   Thought this was a discussion forum where discussions take place online?   I feel that I and everybody else is entitled to their opinion if that is OK with you?



Sorry, and agreed

Originally posted by Port End Flyer


I thought we were all having a discussion regarding the PY of a Dart Hawk for lostatsea who was interested in buying a Hawk, F18 or other Cat to race at his/her club under PY, that has not altered! You mention that it is the same for Int 14 & Int Moth etc, clearly they do not race under SCHRS nor are they Primary or Secondary yardsticks therefore their PY will alter with development and their subsequent results via returns to the RYA. My point was that this has not happened to the F18 since the Hawk’s time therefore 691 maybe correct for the Hawk but in my opinion it is not correct for all F18’s should they race under PY.



It is a discussion about the Hawks handicap, but the problem is that because no cat really uses PY there are never any returns so the rating can never be updated.

This is why the SCHRS method is used.

No method is perfect, we just do the best with what we can.

There is nothing stopping particular clubs starting with 691 as a base and then adjusting it as they see fit.  I have seen this done before for other classes.

Originally posted by Port End Flyer


You mention that it is the same for Int 14 & Int Moth etc, clearly they do not race under SCHRS nor are they Primary or Secondary yardsticks therefore their PY will alter with development and their subsequent results via returns to the RYA.



My point here is that 7 or 8 year old 14's sail of the same handicap as the new ones but I see the subtle difference you point out.
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sailwave View Drop Down
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Posts: 58 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sailwave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 06 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by Port End Flyer

Far as I can see all different F18’s are exactly the same!
Coincidence? Or just all entered under the banner F18 and pasted out to the different makes?

Darline tells me that they are they are all assigned the same rating.  Note however that the Tiger also has a 'one-design' rating; which it sailes under in handicap events.  Not sure I really follow why, but is presumably something to do with its ISAF class status and/or class rules. 
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 06 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by sailwave

Originally posted by Port End Flyer

Far as I can see all different F18’s are exactly the same!
Coincidence? Or just all entered under the banner F18 and pasted out to the different makes?

Darline tells me that they are they are all assigned the same rating.  Note however that the Tiger also has a 'one-design' rating; which it sailes under in handicap events.  Not sure I really follow why, but is presumably something to do with its ISAF class status and/or class rules. 

And maybe because Hobie have some influence.

I can be a problem with returns systems, what are you really measuring ?

It is also a problem with Formula classes, those with old/obsolete boats / sails end up sailing on the same handicap as the fast / new boats.  Blanket ratings from measurement rules also have the same problem, "if it measures (and sign's on as a F18, it rates as an F18). 

 

A stick has to go in the sand somewhere and so diffucult decisions need to be made.  As Worthy says, F18's (and Cats in general) don't do that much PY Handicap racing in the UK.  The only ones I do are a couple of persuit races at Grafham, and then the Duke of Ed and the GGP.

Not really a good basis for PY, but then that is all we have.   
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AdrianM View Drop Down
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Posts: 33 		Post Options Post Options   Quote AdrianM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 06 at 6:09pm

A couple of points - we race at our club off 691 as do a couple of A's and race against monos as well.  Against the A's this gives a pretty fair set of results for round the cans but when it's more windward/leeward we probably have an advantage in all bar the really light stuff.  While I'd love to see them sail off the PY equivalent of 97 I can't actually say it would seem right.

With regard to the Hawk I think that it is worth mentioning that 2 have raced on the F18 circuit over the last few years with very good helms and they have achieved top half placings (I think they were both S2's though).  Downwind I would say that they were as quick as any.  In terms of bang for your buck you won't go far wrong and for club racing it will be a hoot which is, after all, what most of us do it for.
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Worthy View Drop Down
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Posts: 511 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Worthy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 06 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by AdrianM

With regard to the Hawk I think that it is worth mentioning that 2 have raced on the F18 circuit over the last few years with very good helms and they have achieved top half placings (I think they were both S2's though).



Sorry to nit pick but they were both the same boat but with different helms, and yes it was an S2, although the hull shape is very similar to the original Hawk.  I don't know of any other S2 in existence but there may be one in france.

But the point you were making is yet it was fast.
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lostatsea View Drop Down
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Posts: 31 		Post Options Post Options   Quote lostatsea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 06 at 7:12pm
Thanks for all the input. All quite confusing for me!!. All I wan't really is to enjoy a good blast around and a bit of club racing, which I hope the Hawk will fulfill.
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Worthy View Drop Down
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Posts: 511 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Worthy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 06 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by lostatsea

Thanks for all the input. All quite confusing for me!!. All I wan't really is to enjoy a good blast around and a bit of club racing, which I hope the Hawk will fulfill.


You will love it.  Enjoy!!
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tornado435 View Drop Down
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Posts: 196 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tornado435 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 06 at 10:03am

One last note on the Tiger rating. For Hobie Tiger events the boat has to be as supplied by hobie with all hobie kit. To race under F18 they can use whatever bits they want. This would explain the different handicapping.

 

whatever boat you have sail hard, sail fair and have a damn good time doing it.
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