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andy h View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 Jun 22 at 10:45am
Here's my NS14, which is quite square-topped.  Some are even squarer now.  Like the Tasar, this has a rotating mast.  Mine is quite flexi carbon, tapered above the hounds.  On the water rig adjustment is very limited, so you rely on the main and mast's built-in gust response to a large extent.  It's pretty user-friendly.
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Posts: 750 		Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 22 at 10:50am
Originally posted by eric_c

Originally posted by H2

Originally posted by eric_c

The H2 has a PN of 1034?
The Phantom, with almost no roach at all, 1004.
Blaze with a big round roach, 1033.
Dzero 1029

It's not looking like sailing's answer to nitrous oxide is it?

I don't think I have ever considered the sail shape on the H2 to be about maximising speed as such, its a concept that tried to balance out all the factors that people wanted from the boat. But as you raised it the H2 sail area is 9.3 sqm and the Blaze is 10 sqm and we sail off virtually the same PY and are similar lengths and widths so I would say that in this case the H2 rig would seem more efficient than the blaze one.

Or maybe the hull design is significant, the Blaze having a lot of wetted surface and a generally 1990s air about it? not to mention being made out of slate.

Well the blaze and H2 are closest in terms of hull dimensions and wetted area of the examples you gave - the Phantom and D0 are considerably different concepts. Besides - as stated, I am not advocating that a square top main is really about maximising power; in the H2 it fits the designers desire for a well balanced boat that is both easy and fun to sail.
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 22 at 11:24am
Originally posted by H2

....

Well the blaze and H2 are closest in terms of hull dimensions and wetted area of the examples you gave - the Phantom and D0 are considerably different concepts. Besides - as stated, I am not advocating that a square top main is really about maximising power; in the H2 it fits the designers desire for a well balanced boat that is both easy and fun to sail.




Butr isn't the point supposed to be that square top will give better gust response, make the boat easier to sail efficiently and hence give better performance around the course? I don't think any is saying it's about more peak power, apart from the river sailors who want to poke more area above the bushes, as British Moths were doing before any skiff or cat sailors were thinking about 'square tops'.  If the H2 rig is genuinely more 'automatic' it should be easier to sail well and have a lower PY. So why is it significantly slower than a Phantom? Does anyone race those against one another in conditions where gust response matters? Is the superior planform of the square top simply trumped by the amount of multi-sailmaker development that's gone into Phantoms? Or would the PYs just be wrong if you put the two boats around a course in F3 gusting F5 or whatever? The two boats must have pretty similar LWL and SA/Disp(loaded).?
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 22 at 11:33am
Just looking at it the H2 seems a fair bit narrower than the Blaze at the waterline, more 'Merlin like' (not surprisingly) if you like, making it more easily driven in displacement mode? And the absence of racks makes 'proper' roll tacks a possibility both of which help compensate for the 1.1m2 sail area disadvantage (though whether that's accurate depends on how the sails are measured).



Edited by Sam.Spoons - 08 Jun 22 at 12:02pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 22 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by eric_c

If the H2 rig is genuinely more 'automatic' it should be easier to sail well and have a lower PY. So why is it significantly slower than a Phantom?

Length I imagine.

Edited by JimC - 08 Jun 22 at 12:33pm
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Posts: 750 		Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 22 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by eric_c

Originally posted by H2

....

Well the blaze and H2 are closest in terms of hull dimensions and wetted area of the examples you gave - the Phantom and D0 are considerably different concepts. Besides - as stated, I am not advocating that a square top main is really about maximising power; in the H2 it fits the designers desire for a well balanced boat that is both easy and fun to sail.




Butr isn't the point supposed to be that square top will give better gust response, make the boat easier to sail efficiently and hence give better performance around the course? I don't think any is saying it's about more peak power, apart from the river sailors who want to poke more area above the bushes, as British Moths were doing before any skiff or cat sailors were thinking about 'square tops'.  If the H2 rig is genuinely more 'automatic' it should be easier to sail well and have a lower PY. So why is it significantly slower than a Phantom? Does anyone race those against one another in conditions where gust response matters? Is the superior planform of the square top simply trumped by the amount of multi-sailmaker development that's gone into Phantoms? Or would the PYs just be wrong if you put the two boats around a course in F3 gusting F5 or whatever? The two boats must have pretty similar LWL and SA/Disp(loaded).?

I really do not want to get into a PY discussion, I think we have done that to death. I do sail against Phantoms at my club, they destroy me in the light and I often beat them over the water in medium or strong wind in part because my rig is so much easier to control. Perhaps my preferred point of reference is the opinion of my informal "training partner" who has been national champion in both Phantom and H2 as well as in many other classes who always comments on how sweet the rig is on his H2 when he takes it out to do some two boat tuning with me!
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 22 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by eric_c

If the H2 rig is genuinely more 'automatic' it should be easier to sail well and have a lower PY. So why is it significantly slower than a Phantom?

Length I imagine.

Waterline length is the same, within mm?
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 22 at 1:19pm
There really is no point comparing boats then trying to draw conclusions about the speed of them by only looking at the rig . It’s like looking at British moth with its 8m high aspect rig and deciding it must be fast, with out taking into account its only 11’ foot long with a scow front. 
The only way would be  to test rigs on the same hull and even then some rigs suit certain hull shapes and conditions.
Any way please IGNORE my ramblings and carry on  Smile Its been a great thread so far .
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 22 at 1:29pm
The Blaze keeps getting mentioned here ... and not necessarily by its owners !  Funny that - might make you think that its got something going for it.   A very different paradigm of course.  My summary ? - It would be a very boring world if we all liked the same things- I'm personally happy that people sail or race anything frankly..  Most Blaze owners refrain from comparing it to other approaches here because it is so different.

A few leave us for 'greener pastures' each season of course, but then a very high proportion do return within a couple of years.  Don't just compare boats on forums via your keyboards  - just sail them.   Go on ...Try the lot for real, you've mostly got the time and any good proactive class will willingly assist !! Wink


Edited by Cirrus - 08 Jun 22 at 1:31pm
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 22 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by Grumpycat

There really is no point comparing boats then trying to draw conclusions about the speed of them by only looking at the rig . It’s like looking at British moth with its 8m high aspect rig and deciding it must be fast, with out taking into account its only 11’ foot long with a scow front. 
The only way would be  to test rigs on the same hull and even then some rigs suit certain hull shapes and conditions.
Any way please IGNORE my ramblings and carry on  Smile Its been a great thread so far .

Indeed, I'm looking at the H2 hull and can't understand why it would be slow in light air.

I recall a conversation a few years ago about Harrier dinghies, forefather of the H2 (?) which allegedy went well with a rig from a Phantom, in light air. Of course transplanting rigs is only going to work if the mast step happens to be in the right place.
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