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davidyacht View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 Aug 18 at 7:53pm
The reason why no boat will get the traction that the Laser ever achieved is that when it was launched it retailed at the equivalent of £ 3,200 in today’s money.  If the Aero or D0 were being sold at £ 3,200 right now then they would be selling in their thousands.
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 18 at 8:18pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Rs400atc,
Very surprised that designers of Dzero and Aero didn't have the ambition to replace the Laser, I wouldn't have thought they intended to only sell a couple of boats a week and then fade away, but it's only my opinion not insider knowledge.

You can't replace the Laser, because the Laser is not just a new boat available from Sailboats etc, or a bunch of people racing nearly new boats. It is a whole ecosystem of new boats, old boats, middling boats and a llthe luggage that goes with that. Even if a new boat took 80% of Laser's new boat sales
away, Laser would still have a powerful presence for the next ten years.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 18 at 8:52am
Originally posted by 423zero

Rs400atc,
Very surprised that designers of Dzero and Aero didn't have the ambition to replace the Laser, I wouldn't have thought they intended to only sell a couple of boats a week and then fade away, but it's only my opinion not insider knowledge.

Aero has sold a whole lot more than "a couple of boats a week". There's plenty of people who want a single-hander and don't want a Laser and as far as my club goes, the Aero is a hit and outnumbers the Lasers. D-Zero is a good boat too but doesn't have the same marketing machine behind it. No new class will now ever outnumber the totals Lasers built, the dinghy boom is long over and the market is too fragmented.
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423zero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 18 at 9:06am
Doesn't help matters that they are making and selling more than the other classes
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 18 at 10:06am

.....no boat will get the traction that the Laser ever achieved is that when it was launched it retailed at the equivalent of £ 3,200 in today’s money

And that is the current L@ser problem in a nutshell...  It WAS the equivalent of GBP 3,200 in today’s money but it is not exactly near that today. 

Many decades have passed and most regular products in most markets, certainly ones that barely change in particular, tend to get less expensive .....not so with this one that has evolved to become the classical 'cash-cow' to its owners who appear to pursue maximum return whatever .... even if the approach allows enough space for the odd viable challenge.  Risky.   Nothing wrong with the cash-cow approach in itself in my book but you have to be adaptable in changing circumstances.

The Aero is doing fantastically well, is properly established already, is well funded and managed and is rapidly looking to be to be a viable long term challenge.  It is now probably too late for the L@ser owners to react without some real damage to its apparent long term cash-cow policy.  (Rule 101 - never underestimate competitors or really believe your own propaganda)......  Market leadership really can lead to eventual market replacement if you don't take real care.  The consequences of not reacting appropriately when challenged in this position can be terminal. 

It may not be at that point in all geographical markets yet of course and there might be other real challengers out there we don't even know about yet ..... time will tell.  L@ser might even eventually react – who knows !  Ultimately markets are dynamic, little can even be partially 'forever' without recognising and responding to challenges in good time. 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 18 at 10:58am
I'm not certain Laser would be selling many more new boats with a lower price. There's big constituency who just don't like Lasers. Those who like Lasers won't need to think that much about their choice whereas (say) Solo or Aero sailors are unlikely to consider a cheaper Laser.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 18 at 11:02am
I don't disagree with what Mike says, but how many USD was £3200 in 1970 or whenever it was the Laser was launched? How many hours basic wage is it, how many pints of beer?
The 'value' in buying a Laser has also changed, originally you were buying a simple boat, now it's value is largely in the worldwide racing scene.
Sure Laser make money out of selling boats, but ISTM that over the years many people have come along trying to do it better and cheaper and failed to grab much of the market.But maybe 'failed' is the wrong word in many cases. Is the Byte (e.g.) a failure because it didn't make the Radial obsolete, or was it a success, making a few quid, providing a choice and all that?

But all products have a lifecycle, the laser has already had a long one, and it ain't dead yet.
The 'eros might turn out to have shorter product lives. Manufacturing developes all the time. Five years' time, people will be thinking we could do this lighter/cheaper/better?
Or the market might simply want something different?
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 18 at 11:24am
Originally posted by RS400atC

I don't disagree with what Mike says, but how many USD was £3200 in 1970 or whenever it was the Laser was launched? How many hours basic wage is it, how many pints of beer?
The 'value' in buying a Laser has also changed, originally you were buying a simple boat, now it's value is largely in the worldwide racing scene.
Sure Laser make money out of selling boats, but ISTM that over the years many people have come along trying to do it better and cheaper and failed to grab much of the market.But maybe 'failed' is the wrong word in many cases. Is the Byte (e.g.) a failure because it didn't make the Radial obsolete, or was it a success, making a few quid, providing a choice and all that?

But all products have a lifecycle, the laser has already had a long one, and it ain't dead yet.
The 'eros might turn out to have shorter product lives. Manufacturing developes all the time. Five years' time, people will be thinking we could do this lighter/cheaper/better?
Or the market might simply want something different?

The Aero 7 in real terms sells at twice the 1970’s price of the Laser.

OK the Laser has been improved, better tiller, controls and more recently the sail, but I don’t see these “improvements” costing or being worth the extra £3k.

I have owned at least 6 Lasers over the years and as many Solo’s in recent years, so I come to this with a little personal experience.  I am absolutely sure that the Solo would not have sold 1000 boats in 10 years had the Laser been at its original (real) price points.

The Laser had great appeal because of the incredibly low cost of ownership largely due to a low buy in price, and very good residual values.  This was so good that many could consider owning a Laser as an impulse purchase.

At my club in the early eighties, we would group buy 10+ Lasers every year, and sell the old boats on for less than the price of a sail ... no brainier.

I don’t think that such a virtuous position exists today.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote sandgrounder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 18 at 11:44am
To claim that the Laser is likely to be displaced anytime soon is specious at best.
Sure, RS have done a great job selling 1,700 boats over the 5 seasons since inception, an average of 340 boats per year, with production spiking some time back.
However, Laser maintain sales of 3,000 units per year with one of the builders presently increasing production from 30/week to 50/week, in order to satisfy current demand.
Additionally, price point is over 25% lower for the Laser.
If we consider events, the recent Aero Worlds were a really great achievement with 207 boats across the 3 classes, though with 80% UK entries.
At the same time the Laser Worlds in Aarhus had 284 entries, and just last week at the Laser Radial Youth Worlds (U19) there were 365 entries.
Next month the Laser Masters Worlds in Ireland has 304 pre-entries from 25 countries.
Once you leave these shores the numbers become massively skewed towards the Laser, that's simply the way it is, with the 2018 Aero North American Championship managing just 21 boats across the 3 fleets.
The Laser being displaced is not going to happen within the lifetime of the average UK dinghy sailor, it simply has too much momentum.

Edited by sandgrounder - 28 Aug 18 at 12:02pm
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423zero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 18 at 12:15pm
+1 and thanks for the figures, my estimate of 4to5 boats per week was quite close.
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