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Pay and play

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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pay and play
    Posted: 31 May 18 at 4:52pm
Pay n play is not about cheaping it up, it’s about lifestyle affordability. Oli seems to get the maths...
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423zero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 18 at 5:01pm
I get the maths, the maths must add up, otherwise commercial centres wouldn't exist, just not sure where people are seeing Pay and Play fitting into existing structure we have today ? 
I mainly own old boats ('legacy boats' some call them), would need somewhere to sail these.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 18 at 5:21pm
Originally posted by Oli

Originally posted by chris_wht

Originally posted by H2

I am sure that people have seen it but if your interested look at the Queen Mary site to see what they are doing on P&P - select membership costs £250 to join and then £79 per month for unlimited use of a range of kit and discounted training. This is as close as it gets to joining a gym but works due to proximity to London as a major factor.


£1200 a year to sail on a concrete bowl next to slough  Pinch

thats serious dedication to the sport!

is it?

lets look at the numbers...

say you race/sail an aero 9 for 5 years on that rental scheme thats £6k

now go out and buy one thats £7.5k
insure it over that period is another £900
period membership £1545
5 years of boat parking £895
running costs £250
new sail £500
resale value £4500

total £7090 (conservative costings here and doesn't account for inflation)

i'll take the pay and play please.

My first reaction was it's ridiculously expensive, but then you do, as you say, have to factor in that it's on the outskirts of London, so prices are high, options to sail without a long drive are poor, and yoofs with disposable income are present in large numbers.

So, yes, on one level it's a viable deal. But, and it's a big but, where it fails is that they don't have Aeros. They have lots of Picos, a few Lasers, and generally the a fleet that looks like a large club training fleet. No idea what condition the boats are in, but I don't mind guessing that you could pick up an equivalent Laser for £1000. If you want pay and play with boats like newish Aeros and a large staff making sure they are in the condition you would like your boat to be in when you come to sail, and enough boats that you can sail on the best days when everyone else wants to, then you are going to pay more - MUCH more. And if you want to try your hand in something tricky and vulnerable like a Musto or a foiling Moth, then the prices will rack up again.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work for some, and compared to a London gym membership I'd rather be sailing on QM than sweating in a gym, but as a replacement for the sort of sailing that most people here want it's got a very long way to go.

Peter
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H2 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 18 at 7:31am
Fortunately the small number of people who post on here PeterG are not actually representative of the sailing public!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 18 at 8:47am
1) It is not whether you can find a latent market for 'Pay N Play' .. that might exist or it might not.  2) But can you find anybody prepared to invest in the setup ?  Risk capital does not grow on trees and this one really would look mighty risky.

Answer to 1) ... Likely to be (very) limited indeed
Answer to 2)  .... Frankly NO !  as in 'not any time soon or never'

You can speculate that the market is there or might change in the future all you like .. or put up your own money when you find others are reluctant to stump up the money ....

Thought about it ?  Take your time ....  OK maybe not then..... Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 18 at 8:56am
Would I put up my own money in a new venture? In certain circumstances, maybe with any luck future circumstances - yep I can see a possible situation.

Would I spend money from a club reserve account (assuming it had one) to seed fund proper class racing and encourage new and retain old Members? Yes. No question.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 18 at 9:14am
Risk capital does not grow on trees?? Really Cirrus because there are no companies raising money for models that serve the gig economy for which the revenue model is uncertain.....do you want me to list them for you?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 18 at 10:26am
do you want me to list them for you?

I've raised six figure sums of risk capital on two occasions from hard nosed investors.  It can be done and I do know a fair bit about how it is really done - and not just in theory.   I can list exceptions that did make it as well ..  but they really are very far from being the majority.

Would I invest in this model or even think reasonable terms were somehow possible - No !   But that maybe just me.  Furthermore I think if it was a decent investable model you or someone else would surely be doing it already here or somewhere overseas.  Frankly the entire small boat market is not right for it.

My view ?  The figures simply don't stack up and will not in the forseeable future either.   


Edited by Cirrus - 01 Jun 18 at 10:27am
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H2 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 18 at 10:57am
Cirrus - I have raised more than 50m in equity from some of the world largest companies for the start ups that I have led over the last 15 years all of which would be considered very high risk. My current company serves 63m customers in 11 countries all via mobile which I am selling to one of the worlds largest companies. I get it, believe me.

Would I personally invest in P&P site - no. Would it be possible to raise money - yes.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 18 at 11:23am
so if pay n play isn't viable at your location due to lack of startup capital, how about a more direct boat share initiative where perhaps a few people share the cost of owning/operating privately and have usual time share agreements for use? Or even a less direct one where the owner takes the initial capital hit and rents the boat out when not in use more like airbnb? my concern here would be insurance.
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