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Rules Observance

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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rules Observance
    Posted: 20 Oct 17 at 6:15pm
When RO I once made the mistake of not finishing someone who left a mark to the wrong side ... my thinking was that he had not sailed the course; it was made quite clear to me that the RO only has the powers to disqualify someone without protest for starting infringements.

I have also seen monumental cockups caused by helpful safety boat crews, by proffering well meaning advice ref. courses, but not to everyone, which has resulted in races being lobbed.  

When I am RO I instruct safety boat drivers not to verbally communicate with racing boats (except in an emergency).

I don’t think any of this is detrimental to how the sport is perceived, better to apply the rules even handedly to all competitors.

The correct procedure would be for the RO to protest the offender, in reality I doubt if RO’s would protest in a club race situation unless the miscreant did some really blatant cheating.

There is nothing to stop competitors sportingly telling others when they have sailed the incorrect course, this is by no means unusual at our club.  

Unlike my usual cynical grumpiness, this response is really to protect volunteer ROs getting themselves into a mess by not following procedure, which might also result in perfectly good races being binned.  Don’t learn the hard way.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 17 at 8:11pm
Originally posted by Rupert

So, in windsurfing they had to scrap certain rules because everyone was cheating, yet you feel you have the moral high ground?

No, we took a pragmatic view about certain rules, notably hitting marks and pumping, the first because it really doesn't matter if you touch a mark as long as you leave it the correct side and the second because, as is still the case with dinghy sailing, rule 42 is unenforceable fair and evenly without a referee or jury boat on the water.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 17 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by H2

I do not want to rock too many boats as people are just coming to terms with me being a competitor and realising I do know my stuff but at the same time I would love advice on how to address these issues!

In starting this thread, I did NOT want to spark a nationwide protesting mania, or any sort of rules observance crusade.

The rules do not oblige anybody to protest a boat.  Ever.  All the entitlements to protest in rule 60 are couched in terms of what a boat or a committee MAY do, not ‘shall’ or ‘must’ do.

A boat that thinks another boat broke a rule and should be penalised should protest promptly and should not rely on anybody else (such as other boats or race officials) to do it for them.

Good reasons why a boat might protest another boat include:

  1. To gain or porotect her own position in a race or pointscore that is important to her;
  2. With respect to another that she thinks is a serious or serial rule-breaker, to ‘teach that boat a lesson’;  or
  3.  She wants to demonstrate that she is not a ‘pushover’ to her competitors.

Good reasons why a boat may refrain from protesting (either by not hailing ‘protest’ at the first reasonable opportunity, or, having done that, by not following through and delivering a a written protest) include:

  1. The outcome of the protest may disadvantage her in a pointscore, for example, by 'moving up' a third competitor, who finished behind the protestee.
  2. The outcome of the protest will gain her  no significant advantage;
  3. On balance, she has better things to do with her time (whether those things may be preparation for further races, or merely socialising:  that’s up to her):  or even
  4. She wishes to avoid the risk that the protest hearing may conclude that she, herself, broke a rule and decide to penalise her.

Nobody much likes a busybody, and unless it makes a difference to your own results or is a problem that worries you, it often makes a deal of ‘social sense’ not to protest.

That said, I would remind everyone that while it is always possible to hold back on a written protest, if you have failed to hail ‘protest’ and, if necessary display your red flag promptly, you have forfeited your opportunity to have your protest heard if you DO want to go ahead with it.  I happen to think that just the hail of ‘protest’ is an effective cue to a rule-breaking boat, and will often result in them taking applicable penalty turns when they otherwise might not.

What this thread was meant to be about was , once you HAVE decided that there is a rules observance problem with, hopefully’ a small group of sailors that does bother you, how best to go about tackling it.



Edited by Brass - 26 Mar 18 at 9:51pm
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 17 at 4:23pm
Well I said I’d come back to this topic - the answer is that the Fleet ,’Do your turns’ at a persistent offender does appear to have had an enduring affect.
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423zero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 17 at 10:04pm
Brass,
Your last paragraph, I have known we have a problem with persistent rule breakers.
When I am OOD, rule infringements are rare, I believe because racers know I will call them.
I am not convinced yet, that on the water policing is a wrong or in any way detrimental to our sport.
Most people under 30 are so used to living in a structured world, they would probably be more comfortable racing in a controlled environment.
Judging by the amount of forum traffic regarding cheating, because that's what it is, it's a country wide problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 17 at 1:47am
423zero,
What leads you to believe that rule infringements are rare when you are OOD? Serious question.

I believe on water policing can be a very good thing, but it is difficult to do well and fairly. Hence why jurors hunt in pairs ;-)

Coached racing is also a good thing, as long as all the sailors are aware of it, and are happy that a slight incline has been applied to the playing field, albeit for the greater good.

The rules give a very clear structure to how they should be applied and enforced. Summarily "calling out" sailors is not within that structure, for very good reason.

For example, at my old club our OOD set a very ambiguous course, and about half the fleet went one way and half the other. As the OOD was also the guy that updated the results, he decided that the half of the fleet who's interpretation differed from his original intention had not sailed the correct course and should be scored accordingly, so he published the results with them marked as "DSQ". He then went and sailed the next week and won the series, ahead of a boat that would have beaten him had they been recorded as a finisher in the previous week's race. Discuss...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 17 at 8:22am
Originally posted by sargesail

Well I said I’d come back to this topic - the answer is that the Fleet ,’Do your turns’ at a persistent offender does appear to have had an enduring affect.
Great to see you got some good results without getting too officially heavy handed.
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 17 at 9:13am
Originally posted by ohFFsake

For example, at my old club our OOD set a very ambiguous course, and about half the fleet went one way and half the other. As the OOD was also the guy that updated the results, he decided that the half of the fleet who's interpretation differed from his original intention had not sailed the correct course and should be scored accordingly, so he published the results with them marked as "DSQ".
I don’t think that he is allowed to do that unless there is provision to allow him to do so in the SI’s.

Maybe we need Racing Rules of Sailing Lite which would allow all sorts of offences currently forbidden, which would see a major expansion of our sport.

I think golf is considering this, and 20/20 cricket.

I noticed that the Word Sailing Cup final in Japan had a 10 minute long medal race in the 49er’s ... no doubt also a ground breaking attempt to expand the sport.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 17 at 9:39am
I was once taken to a protest for missing a mark (a middle mark on a river where you had to tack out into the stream and back to go round it. Most boats seemed to think that meant sailing up the middle for a long way, whereas obviously the quickest route was to sail slightly past, tack out, round and back in. The OOD had missed this, and assumed I'd simply sailed up the bank. Luckily, the OOD has to protest, and I had a witness or 2, so it was kicked out. However, the manner in which the protest was heard meant I never bothered to return to that club.

So, no, there is a route in the rules for someone who has sailed the wrong course to be dealt with (though usually, and I've certainly done this, on being informed, a quick "oh bugger" and retirement from the race is the norm) and we should stick with that.

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423zero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 17 at 9:55am
OhFFsake,
OOD is part of a team, 2 safety boats, 2 in each boat, hopefully looking around for incidents, plus rest of onshore team, sometimes a new member is also watching how to do duty, I am also counting racers, who will pass infringements to safety boat crew, if miscreant fails to do their turns, I will call them on it, that's it really.
When I am racing, loads of infringements, that are not called, I call incidents that directly affect me only.
This topic started by Brass, with about a dozen forumites posting, you have Davidyacht saying he will not race in light winds.
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