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Gybing Plates

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Gybing Plates
    Posted: 27 Jan 16 at 4:20pm
Yeah, pretty much.

The board must create lift to resist the push from the sails. In order to create lift it must be at an angle to the water.

So think about the pointing too high thing.

Point too high and you still have loads of side load from the sails, so you still need a lot of lift from the board to balance it. However you have less forward drive from the sails, so you go slower. As you're going slower lift from the board reduces, so to get the same amount of lift you need more angle between board and water, so when the boat is in equilibrium its crabbing sideways more and creating loads of drag.

Now suppose you have an an adjustable gybing centreboard. Lets say the boat is making a course good of 45 degrees, and has 8 degrees of leeway, or angle of attack, with the board on the centreline. So the bow is going to be pointing 37 degrees, and say, for arguments sake, the sails are at 5 degrees to the centreline, so pointing 32 degrees.

Now dial on 8 degrees on the board. The boat is still making good 45 degrees, but the bow is now pointing 45 degrees too, so no leeway, and to keep the telltales right you've sheeted out that same 8 degrees, so the sails are at 13 degrees to the centreline. But the essential relationship between sails at 32 degrees and foils at 37 degrees is unchanged.

Hey, I've just thought of a demon tweak for a Moth. Give it an adjustable gybing daggerboard and the sailor could align the hull with the apparent wind in order to minimise aero drag!

Anyway, to summarise, like a lot of things on boats, leeway and weather helm have to be like little Bear's porridge, just right, and too much and too little are both faults.

Edited by JimC - 27 Jan 16 at 4:22pm
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 16 at 4:41pm
So now, currently, standard CB or Dagger, to help me fully understand this use of the term 'leeway' is the 4 degrees or 8 degrees whatever, derived from a tangent of the leading edge of the foil?

I think we need a little sketch with arrow things and angles as you would a child in geometry 101 if you'll excuse the americanism

Edited by iGRF - 27 Jan 16 at 4:42pm
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 16 at 5:29pm
Leeway = angle between heading and course sailed through the water. 

Also = AoA of foil aligned with centreline. (IANANA). 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 16 at 5:32pm
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I luv Wight View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote I luv Wight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 16 at 5:43pm
For a gybing board, the board is the same angle to the blue lines as above, but it's the hull that is rotated ( anticlockwise here )  by the leeway angle, so the blue lines ( track ) line up with the fore / aft lines of the hull.
Which can mean less drag off the hull.
So you make better height to windward because you're not slipping sideways as much, or you can sail a bit faster until the drag catches up again.

I've made boards for 5o5s, with gybe angle of 2degrees, with angles of up to 6 degrees for Hornets that have thick, short-chord small foils.

Hornets have buttons in the case, so the board locks straight when lifted a little, 5o5s use bumps on the board that lock the board sideways in the case when lifted a bit. A little forward rake to gybe the board, vertical and raked to lock.

Gybing boards work best in flat water, in waves you don't get the drag reduction as the water is moving about, so boats lock the board for wavy conditions


http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk
Andy P
foiling Int Moth GBR3467
Freedom 21 Codling
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 16 at 5:58pm
Originally posted by davidyacht


Originally posted by gordon1277

What a shame about all the boats lost at Cowes some peoples years of effort in restoration just gone plus classics we will never see again.
Awful for all concerned.

Yep really sad, something we worry about in Salcombe, 80% of the Active Yawl fleet are in two barns, albeit on different sides of the estuary.

Terrible new but at least the Classic Boat museum hadn't started its move to the site and now the building earmarked for them is being used to help these businesses get back up and running.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 16 at 6:28pm
Gybing the board turns the hull parallel to its true track through the water, removing large drag from hull to smaller drag off gybing board, is that correct ?
Presumably light winds no benefit ?
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2547 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 16 at 7:08pm
This gybing board will be mustard at helping you to further exploit the lee bow effect ...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 16 at 8:19pm
Fuller rule number 1. Never trust anything prepared by an advocate of Cat sailing.

That diagram without context is convoluted.

I need something simpler and more relevant to displacement speeds, those true/apparent wind angles are off any scale we'll likely experience.

oh and 2547 not much tidal lee bow effect going on at our lake unsurprisingly.

Edited by iGRF - 27 Jan 16 at 8:21pm
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Daniel Holman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 16 at 9:50pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by iGRF

are you saying the helm is on or about the same angle as the plate and if so that would be constant weather helm?


Yes, and then again no...

There's a lot of muddled thinking about weather helm, and Dan's point about equilibrium and balance is a good way of thinking about it.

Here's what I think:

Sailing along in a straight line everything must be in balance. You've got a sideways load from the sails acting on a centre of effort somewhere between the two foils, and sideways load, normally on the both foils. Because there's sideways load on the rudder then because the blade is mostly or all behind the pivot it tugs on the tiller, and people think of it as weather helm, but its not as simple as that.

Our first boat has a non gybing board, and in order to provide side force the board has to make an angle of say 4 degrees to the oncoming water, and we call that leeway, and again people think of it as a bad thing, but its not, its intrinsic to any boat with a symmettric foil fixed on the centreline.

OK, so first think of the balance with all the load on the centreboard and none on the rudder. Mast raked well forward I expect. For the boat to be in equilibrium the rudder must contribute no side force. It won't be pulling on the hand in either direction, and it will be angled exactly to the water flow - so 4 degrees to leeward! That's what was traditionally thought of a balanced, but actually all the side load is on the board, so the rudder is being dragged through the water and doing nothing but contributing wetter surface drag.

Next the rig is raked back a bit and so think of the boat with the rudder exactly on the centreline and going in a straight line. For this to balance then there must be proportionally equal side load on rudder and centreboard. The rudder blade is making the same angle of attack on the water as the cb, and this is probably the lowest drag configuration for a modern boat. The rudder is pulling on the helm's hand, so many people would say there is weather helm. So yes, but its *good* weather helm! Incidentally the 'leeway' will have reduced a bit, because with the rudder taking up some of the sideload the centreboard needs less angle of attack on the water.

OK, so rake the rig back so its all over the rudder. There's near enough no sideload on the centreboard, first thing that we observe is that the boat has stopped making any leeway. No load on the centreboard, no angle of attack on the centreboard, no leeway. Next thing we observe is that because all the side load is on the rudder, its got to have a shed load of angle of attack to create the necessary lift. This means its got to be pulled well to windward, and we have shedloads of what was traditionally called weather helm, and we have loads of drag and having no leeway is definitely a bad thing!

OK, so we now know that we want to have the rudder parallel to the centreboard (roughly). So now we fit a gybing board and the centreboard is angled to what the leeway angle was in the middle example. Boat makes no leeway. But to maintain the balance the rudder blade still needs to be parallel to the centreboard, so it has to be pulled to weather the same amount that the centreboard is angled, and it will pull on the hand by the same amount that it was. So on the one hand we could call it weather helm, but on the other hand its exactly what we want...

So what we are doing with the rudder, in order to sail in a straight line, is actually to change the angle of attack on the rudder so the side load is shared correctly between the two foils.

Dan, would you agree with the above description?

Originally posted by iGRF

Anyway, small boat under foiled, should I or shouldn't I?

For what my opinion is worth, give it decent shape foils first and see if it still feels underfoiled and how much leeway you are making.


bang on Jim. In reality the rudder is about a degree or two further yawed than dagger for same Cl as its operating in the downwash. Also, in a non steady state you'll be running a variable side force off the rudder so may load it up a bit less to get a similar RMS value or Cl.
High aspect boards like to operate ~ 4 deg AoA (less and they are dragging too much WSA, more and too much induced. Low aspect foils best at sat 2 deg as induced drag more expensive. Even with high aspect foils, you wouldn't want to show the hull that much AoA (leeway) as its a 1:20 aspect ratio foil and will be picking up a lot of induced. Its easy to design / size foils for slow boats, as they go the same speed once up to speed. HP boats are generally massively over finned as they can go say 50% faster in wind than when just powered, for same RM i.e. side force. Mind you all that area is generally needed for getting out of tacks in most boats.
Dan
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