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The Evolution of Expense
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Evolution of Expense
    Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 9:56am
The alternative is to get kids sailing in boats owned by the clubs or sailing centres. In this way you avoid the arms race.

For instance there is absolutely no need for the younger sailors to race in class compliant Optimists. If they are all racing roto-moulded clones then they will learn the essential racing skills. Whenthey have graduated from this stage they can go on to the full class compliant version.

In the same way the American teenagers sail Club 420's, a more strongly built version until they are of a level to compete for places on the national and international circuit.
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 10:42am
Originally posted by davidyacht

I think that the problem with the squad system is more that it creams off talent and takes it away from local clubs.  I am all for training and coaching within clubs at all levels.  I think that coaching is valuable at club level mostly to improve the back of the fleet, so that they may keep engaged and stick with the sport, even if the same people win every week.

The grass roots of our sport are the clubs, the RYA should consider this more when making out their strategies.  They could start by banning competitors from using RYA as a club when competing in open events.

They could make participation in club programmes compulsory for anyone who receives any form of grant.

My vote is for Clive to develop the RYA club programme, with Jerry advising on the socials...we couldn't lose!

But even then there are two sides to everything.  One of the clubs we are members of has a busy junior (down to very junior) teaching set-up, graduating to in-club race coaching.  But it also has significant numbers in the squads.  Some at the very top end.  To the kids (from the very juniors up) those in the squads are aspirational role models (in every way - at least at the Club they are really nice kids too).  And that has a really positive affect on participation.

I get where you are going with not using RYA as the club, but again two sides to it.  We have always been club members, but for two years recently we lives as far from a sailing club as it is possible to in England (minimum 50 minutes drive from the middle of Salisbury Plain).  We only sailed or raced at our club twice in each year, but were active on the Open Circuit.  Why should someone in those circumstances have to join a Club?
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 12:24pm
So there is a proposal to rewrite RRS 75.1. This is not a rule that may be changed by RYA prescription, Sailng Instructions or class rules. In order for this to change to take place one would have to convince an ISAF Member National Authority to make a submission, for the appropriate ISAF Committee to recommend adoption by Council, and for Council, with a majority of members representing, directly or indirectly, MNAs to vote in favour.


Good luck!
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 12:41pm
Originally posted by gordon

So there is a proposal to rewrite RRS 75.1.

In the extraordinarily unlikely event of the RYA wanting to do such a thing, it could probably be achieved by renaming what is now called membership of the RYA something different so it no longer matched the words of RRS 75.1.

However such a change would be utterly pointless. It would not result in people joining real clubs as participating members. They would simply join paper clubs which provided only RYA affiliation, or perhaps a real club or two would offer discount "country" membership as some coastal clubs used to, maybe still do, which complied with RRS 75 but conferred little or no rights to use club facilities at a much reduced fee.

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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 1:10pm
As happened in the US when US Sailing required everyone to be members of a club. Subscribers to the Scuttlebutt newsletter could just print off their membership card to the SSC.
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 2:07pm
Would that be because US Sailng does not require clubs to pay an affiliation fee. Or did some generous sponsor pay Scuttlebutt SC's fee?
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Posts: 2965 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by sargesail

Originally posted by fab100

Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

Does he sail now? What do you think?


Answer 1) No, he got fed up with being teased and told off about his old boat that he couldn't stand it, and gave up sailing as soon as he could

Answer 2) Yes, by sailing an old boat and doing well, he was able to survive the transition from bank of mum and dad to the real world of sailing whatever you can afford.
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

Option 1)
And people keep disagreeing with me that squaddie stuff like this puts 'em off. I'm unsurprised but sorry to hear it but thank you for sharing

I'm beginning to think I should persuade the RYA to give me an over-paid job as a champion of club sailing so they can at least give a nod to one of their (ignored) obligations. Two problems: (1) i would n't half annoy them (2) I'd spend all weekend driving around the country as opposed to sailing



Well the teasing - that's what kids do.  Nasty weren't we?  

Did Sparrow junior stop any other sports when he got teased? 

No because the other sports aren't so inherantly full of one up-manship class behaviours. As the other Sport he did was Judo, those sorts of behaviours are not allowed to perpetuate in the sport. 
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Posts: 437 		Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

I think that the problem with the squad system is more that it creams off talent and takes it away from local clubs.  I am all for training and coaching within clubs at all levels.  I think that coaching is valuable at club level mostly to improve the back of the fleet, so that they may keep engaged and stick with the sport, even if the same people win every week.



and class association regional traveller series  don;t ? 
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 9:17pm
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

Originally posted by sargesail

Originally posted by fab100

Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

Does he sail now? What do you think?


Answer 1) No, he got fed up with being teased and told off about his old boat that he couldn't stand it, and gave up sailing as soon as he could

Answer 2) Yes, by sailing an old boat and doing well, he was able to survive the transition from bank of mum and dad to the real world of sailing whatever you can afford.
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

Option 1)
And people keep disagreeing with me that squaddie stuff like this puts 'em off. I'm unsurprised but sorry to hear it but thank you for sharing

I'm beginning to think I should persuade the RYA to give me an over-paid job as a champion of club sailing so they can at least give a nod to one of their (ignored) obligations. Two problems: (1) i would n't half annoy them (2) I'd spend all weekend driving around the country as opposed to sailing



Well the teasing - that's what kids do.  Nasty weren't we?  

Did Sparrow junior stop any other sports when he got teased? 

No because the other sports aren't so inherantly full of one up-manship class behaviours. As the other Sport he did was Judo, those sorts of behaviours are not allowed to perpetuate in the sport. 

I get that - Judo was perhaps he only sport I played as a kid that was free from that sort of thing.  It also had a coach who was an absolutely superb role model, with an inner calm that told on all of us high-spirited youngsters.

But I do think it depends on where you sail whether those behaviours are there.  And I've seen them in most sports.  (and from the parent's in most sports too....)
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 10:04pm
Originally posted by zippyRN

Originally posted by davidyacht

I think that the problem with the squad system is more that it creams off talent and takes it away from local clubs.  I am all for training and coaching within clubs at all levels.  I think that coaching is valuable at club level mostly to improve the back of the fleet, so that they may keep engaged and stick with the sport, even if the same people win every week.



and class association regional traveller series  don;t ? 

I tend to find if you have strong class racing at club level, there is little reason to do traveller series; Hayling and Salcombe have very strong Solo Class racing, and you don't see many leaving home.  

Also if you look at the relatively small numbers of qualifiers for the Open circuits, it might suggest sailors only make occasional forays, rather than do opens every week.

I appreciate that my suggestion does not stand a snowball in hells chance of happening, however my main point is that many people who sail as RYA are takers from our sport and not givers.

Notwithstanding the problems with some landlocked locations, wouldn't it be great if some of the RYA prima-donnas joined a club, did some duties, raised the quality of club racing and encouraged some youngsters etc. instead of expecting others to give up their own time to run Open Meetings for their benefit?
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