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davidyacht View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by Null

 
I didnt say big class nationals did I?  But as a competitor at these large status events winning a big event like the Bloody Mary or Lord Birket is a big deal, regardless if you like it or not the number of competitors suggests that I am not far off the money. Sure taking the podium at something like the Merlin nationals is far more prestigious,  But my point is that they are big business and they are taken seriously by many, many people!  So suggesting its all a bit noddy is somewhat disrespectful.  IMO

Fair point, but any form of dinghy or yacht handicapping is flawed, and will always be flawed because there are simply too many variables, and the dataset for many classes is too small.  I totally agree that the Bloody Mary or Lord Birket are a big deal, and I am proud of my 8th and my 30th in the BM, but I also know that my 8th was down to us being in a 12 on a lightwind day, and the 30th in a Merlin was because we stayed upright on a very windy day, while the sheets froze in the blocks.

A few years ago we did the Weston Grand Slam handicap event, I thought this was pretty perfect as handicap events went, because the assymetric classes raced separately.

Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Null

 
Sure taking the podium at something like the Merlin nationals is far more prestigious,  
 

Is it? 

Prestigious to who? 

Actually prestigious to me.  At this moment of time "that bloody old boat" represents the highest quality of dinghy racing available in a non-olympic class.  The appeal of the sport to me is that you can truck up in a Merlin and compete against the very best in our chosen sport, which is not something that you can do in any other sport,

I have a fairly good idea of what you don't like, I am intrigued to know what you do like?

Originally posted by JimC

 
Personally I don't go racing primarily for intense boat on boat battling, although its fun when it happens: I go racing to provide a focus in order to have more fun sailing a boat I like to be in. I'm not sure that I don't feel a little sorry for people who don't care what they are in as long as its close racing, because there's so much else they are missing out on with that narrow focus 

I think that it is possible to acheive both if you are at it long enough!  To be fair to you Jim, you have practiced what you preach and have some boats on your CV that I envy, though I note that you were in a Solo at the weekend ... which fits my brief perfectly!

To be fair to you all, I don't expect everyone to like what I like, and whilst I question why anyone would want sit for days on the bank of a piece of water in the rain with a rod and line for fun, I don't hold it against them.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Originally posted by jeffers


Personally I would be far more satisfied to place well in a fleet like this than win a much smaller fleet.




Just shows we are all different. I hate big fleets. My choices of boat have been made so that I can sail in a small fleet, and enjoy myself. Generally, the events are at smaller venues, with friendly members and nice food at a decent price. And no massive startline with hundreds of boats milling round, shouting and screaming at each other UP UP UP and the same old crap.

I've done big fleet in both class racing and big handicap events, and don't really have much wish to go back. Results have nothing to do with it.
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by davidyacht



I have a fairly good idea of what you don't like, I am intrigued to know what you do like?

Here's is Graeme's list of what the perfect singlehander and racing infrastructure would look like:

- Various hulls under the same class, sold on weight and height categorisation and optimised accordingly
- Various sail sizes under the same class, sold on weight and height categorisation and optimised accordingly
- an asymmetric spinnaker, on a canting pole for square running
- kick up foils 
- all up weight sub 20kg
- option to have it in red
- option to put hydrofoils on it
- hike free system - but not a trapeze
- option to have a SCHRS style system where other classes are benchmarked against it... to lose.

Sadly, this is exactly the type of boat no one seems to want.  

Weight Equalisation seems to be flawed in dinghies (are there any successful weight equalised classes left?)

Asymmetric single handers seem to have settled into a niche, they are most certainly not 'mainstream' and many who've dabbled, wouldn't go back, certainly not for club racing.  

Kick up foils - sod that, flushing strips are a PITA and dagger rudders feel so much more efficient

20kg all up weight- erm no thanks, why would I want a boat which can't stay upright for 10 seconds while I take the trolley back?
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

though I note that you were in a Solo at the weekend ... which fits my brief perfectly!

Not guilty M'lud. I never set foot in one. I was helping run an Open event for them doing results and photos.
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Didn't think that it was your style, no hiking aids!  Missed the (c) 
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2547 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by SimonW99

 The speculation of the "great lakes" solution cannot be right it is subject to speculation which has to be wrong. 

Do you actually understand what the GL objectives are?
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 3:54pm
Originally posted by davidyacht


Actually prestigious to me.  At this moment of time "that bloody old boat" represents the highest quality of dinghy racing available in a non-olympic class.  The appeal of the sport to me is that you can truck up in a Merlin and compete against the very best in our chosen sport, which is not something that you can do in any other sport,


And what a pity that is, the best the sport can offer, a clinker built class for bandits, frankly I genuinely think it's pathetic that this is the case although I fully accept that it is so.

You can rock up to a windsurfing worlds and compete with the best and likely not be far off the same kit.

Please don't tell me the kit you rock up with in a Merlin is going to be anything like the performance of the Pro jocks, or those in Furballs, or any other old hulk where 'they' must love the fact that there is really no chance of a chance incomer competing on equal terms.


What would I like?

A 2 hander single trap wash through 470 -490 sized hull, with a half decent assym kite, stable and working wing wang out to 90 degrees with an all up weight of no more than 60-70 kgs including everything Sail area 12-14 with a 15-16mtr kite.

A single hander with retracting plate and rudder 420-ish wash through, kite capable or by the lee runner.
All carbon rig, all up weight 45 kgs. Sail Area 8.0-8.4

Not much to ask really yet no-ones done it yet.

Events: I like Point to Points, or Round island things, I'd love to do the Lord Birkett, but it's a long way, A not so Bloody Mary would be fun in the summer. I'd do the three rivers if I were up in Norfolk. I used to like Hayling and Chichester harbour but never have been around when an event was on down there. If I lived up there I'd buy a D Zero and join the Grafham lot they seem like good sailors and I'd learn something.

As it is I don't so I shall continue to enjoy what I've got the best way I can, by ignoring the results, I always do ignore them, it's only since the lake lot started sending them into the paper that it got irritating, but not so irritating that I'd buy a Streaker just to go whoop them up.

Edited by iGRF - 20 Oct 14 at 3:56pm
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by 2547


Originally posted by SimonW99

 The speculation of the "great lakes" solution cannot be right it is subject to speculation which has to be wrong. 

Do you actually understand what the GL objectives are?


To attract as many entrants as possible to make a profit for the organisers?
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2547 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by 2547


Originally posted by SimonW99

 The speculation of the "great lakes" solution cannot be right it is subject to speculation which has to be wrong. 

Do you actually understand what the GL objectives are?


To attract as many entrants as possible to make a profit for the organisers?

Given that most clubs are not-for-profit organisations, often with charitable status, then that is a stupid thing to suggest but given your track record that is no surprise ...

The GL groups are seeking to equalise the best in class rather than the average representation of the various classes.

For typical PY racing the average is probably a sensible choice but for these big popular events they choose to try an equalise a state of the art Fireball rather than the average Fireball ... for an event of this type that attracts perhaps the higher end of most fleets that makes sense.

That does of course mean if you turn up in a battered old Fireball you will be disadvantaged.

I think they have made a good effort at developing a set of numbers relevant to their specific events and this is how the PY system is supposed to work ... local deviations for special cases.
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by iGRF

A single hander with retracting plate and rudder 420-ish wash through, kite capable or by the lee runner.
All carbon rig, all up weight 45 kgs. Sail Area 8.0-8.4  

okay, the weight is still a little up on that, but the D-Zero ticks most of those boxes - with a modded kick up rudder it'd tick all of them.  Really wouldn't hard to fit a standard rudder stock and a secondhand blade...  and for local handicap sailing SFW about the out-of-class b**locks.

Sure, you've still got a daggerboard, but then you wouldn't have that in at all during launch and recovery... so not an issue, ever.  Anymore than it's been an issue for Laser sailors all these years.

You know it makes sense, just check out this cheshire cat....
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