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Post Options Post Options   Quote Time Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: serious damage
    Posted: 07 Mar 14 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by flaming

The only damage I've ever had which I thought to be in a grey area was the removal of a yacht's windex in a mast clashing incident.  
Where does the panel think that ought to sit?


At the top of the mast unless its like a Laser!
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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 14 at 2:30pm
I dunno- just send Alex Thomson up there to fix it...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote flaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 14 at 12:25pm
The only damage I've ever had which I thought to be in a grey area was the removal of a yacht's windex in a mast clashing incident.  
Where does the panel think that ought to sit?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 14 at 11:38am
Originally posted by gordon

If a sail was lashed to the deck was it not there to be used during the race? Surely a prudent owner stows his spare sails in a safer place? Your case would be an interesting hearing.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 14 at 8:54am
One thought. Is water ingress a factor to consider? If water can get places it shouldn't, eg through a hole into the boat, or even through the outer skin into the core, should that always be considered serious damage?

I quite like the thought that any damage that puts the boat outside class rules or other event requirements (offshore category for instance) must be intrinsically serious.

Edited by JimC - 07 Mar 14 at 8:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 14 at 8:18am
Firstly - the IJ Manual criteria seem not to be working, if they were I would not have asked the initial question. I was at the same event 2 years running - with different juries. Similar damage was considered "serious" one year and not the other.

The problem appears to be that some competitors and some judges are behaving as though breaking boats was a normal part of sailing. The fact that the rules include measures to deal with such a situation does not mean that the situations is a normal part of sailing, and that they should be accepted or tolerate. In the same way rule 69 exists to deal with behaviour that is unacceptable and should not be tolerated.

The insurance question is an attempt to put some kind of monetary value on the extent of damage. How do you estimate if the market value has been significantly or seriously diminished. The excess can be  seen as an estimate (for that particular type of boat) by a well informed third party of the extent of damage that can be paid for out of the owners wallet! A useful guideline - but only a guideline.

Lifelines and stanchions - if safety regulations requiring these to be in place are rules in the race (see SIs) then any damage to lifelines or stanchions so that that they no longer meet the requirements of the regulations means that the boat cannot sail on without breaking a rule and should retire. This constitutes serious damage.

On rigs - damage to carbon rigs may appear minor but seriously endanger the rig if not repaired. I am not an expert, neither are most owners. If a rigger is available I would ask his advice. I have more experience with carbon fibre fishing rods - which will often break some time after an incident at the point of impact. A tiny flaw, due to the impact, is the source of the break.

On sails - some classes have strict limits on number of sails that boats may own. The owner cannot have spare sails to replace the broken sail. In this case any damage that required more than tape,  will have to be repaired immediately, presumably by sewing, before the boat races again. Seems serious to me.

If a sail was lashed to the deck was it not there to be used during the race? Surely a prudent owner stows his spare sails in a safer place? Your case would be an interesting hearing.

The case of a scratch deep enough to weaken the laminate under the gelcoat - when does it become "serious damage"? Opinions seem to vary widely - from "never" to "always". For me it depends on the amount of work to make good and restore the functionality and the value of the boat. 3 hours work, or calling on  the insurance, seem to point to the damage being serious.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 14 at 3:29am
As I have indicated, my opinion is that we are best served by sticking within the parameters of JM Section M, namely diminution of market value and diminution of functionality and performance.

Critically, the reliance on market value implies that seriousness of money costs should be considered proportionately to the value of the boats concerned. 

Originally posted by gordon

We are now arriving at the heart of the debate.

One point - rule 14 does not qualify damage - any damage will do to prevent RoW boat from being exonerated. If the reply to the question "was there any damage? is "Yes -but only a scratch" then according to the rule the RoW cannot be exonerated.

My latest thinking on this is as follows:
  • a hole in a hull is always serious damage

Agreed
  • a deep scratch that weakens the laminate under the gelcoat is serious damage, as it will require work to permanently prevent further deterioration

Disagree.  I think this example might go either way.

Certainly anything that requires repair is damage, but requirement to repair is not an indicator of serious damage.

Does it impair functionality?  yes:  the breached gelcoat is no longer protecting the core from water.

Does it impair performance?  OK, if there is structural weakening, so that the crew would have to nurse the boat, fine, but if the crew can sail the boat in no different way to the ordinary, then I don't think it gets over the 'seriously impaired performance' test.

Does it significantly diminish the market value of the boat?  What would be the cost of the repair, compared to the overall value of the boat?  I think it is likely that this example would fall short on the value criterion.
  • a small scratch to the gelcoat is not serious damage,

Agreed
  •  but damage over a large area may be considered serious as the work required to restore the boats original appearance may be considerable;

Disagree:  same reasons as above.
  • broken stanchions and lifelines constitute serious damage when the boat no longer meets the appropriate safety regulations;

Could go either way.

This is a pretty common type of damage among boats with lifelines when harbour racing.

There's no doubt that damage to lifelines and stanchions impairs functionality.  I would tend to agree that damage to lifelines and stanchions when these are required by safety regulations is likely to impair performance of the boat or the crew, but I would be wanting to hear some evidence about how and how much performance was inhibited, and I would be thinking carefully about whether this amounted to 'seriously impaired'.
  • damage to a sail that cannot be repaired using tape is serious damage, especially in classes that impose restrictions on the number of sails that may be carried on board and on the replacement of sails during a regatta or season;

I don't think the method of repair has any relevance, nor do the future consequences about sail restrictions or buttoning, which invariably have 'get outs' in the relevant rules for damage.

The fundamental questions remain:
    • is it made less functional?
    • if so, was the performance of the boat seriously impaired?
    • was the value of the sail diminished or the cost of repairs such that, overall the market value of the boat was significantly diminished.
This does raise an interesting issue.  Consider damage caused by a collision to a sail lashed on deck that was squished and cut in the contact.  The sail was never needed in that race and never needed for the rest of the regatta.
    • JM M3 asks 'was the performance of the boat or crew seriously impaired'.  Note the use of the past tense.  We are talking about serious damage here, so the only time and place where we will be considering whether damage was serious or not will be in a protest hearing after the race.
    • JM M3 appears to be referring to damage that impairs a boat's performance in in the relevant race, and does so seriously, not merely hypothetically or potentially.
    • Bear in mind that 'serious damage' is only relevant to rule 44 which concerns whether a boat may take an on-water penalty in one race:  the race where the incident occurred.  Any future disadvantage to the other boat will be dealt with by redress under rule 62.1( b ).  However, if the question of whether damage was serious or not arises in a protest hearing, it will almost invariably be the case that the protest committee will have found that physical damage has occurred, and have considered the liklihood of the effect of the damage on the boat's future performance.
Generally I would prefer to see evidence that a boat's performance was seriously impaired in the race in question, but I suppose if there was evidence of damage which by great good fortune did not impair the performance of the boat in the particular boat, but which is of such a nature that it is likely to seriously impair her performance in subsequent races that might be accepted.
  • damage to standing or running rigging when such damage significantly increases the risk of rig failure. Guidance may be required from a specialist to establish the extent of the increased risk.

I don't have any difficulty with the proposition that damage which increases the risk of failure impairs performance, and provided that contemplated failure would seriously impair performance, then the damage should be considered as serious, but I am extremely uneasy about this post-hoc approach, and I think it is really addressing an unlikely hypothetical.

In the majority of cases for rig damage, there will be good solid contact between the bow and the chainplates, forestay or backstay, and rig-structural damage will be readily apparent, and furthermore will usually be associated with some other hull damage. Sometimes there will be a rig-touch, but once again the protesting boat is going to check this out and be able to bring direct evidence of damage to the protest hearing.  If there is any doubt the protest committee can satisfy itself by direct inspection.
  • the cost of the repair exceeds any reasonable excess on the boat's insurance policy. This on the basis that any claim on racing insurance risks leading to an increase in insurance premiums for both the boat's owners and other owners of similar boats.
I think insurance is a massive red-herring.

If the cost of repair is large, and is large in proportion to the value of the boat, then we have the market value significantly diminished criterion without more ado.

Once again, the consequences for insurance premiums, and the price of eggs, fish and butter are irrelevant.

To resume: a prudent owner can accept that in the course of racing his boat will suffer minor damage and will depreciate in value.

However, no prudent owner can accept that breaking boats to the extent that considerable time and expense is required to make good damage is a normal part of racing.

I disagree.  The whole reason we have rules like rule 44.1( b ) and 62.1( b ) is that contact resulting in serious damage is a wholly foreseeable, albeit hopefully infrequent, incidence of racing sailboats.

The Racing Rules of Sailing have been written, and should be applied, so that sailing remains a non-contact sport, and that the penalty for causing serious damage, as defined above, is to retire from the race.

Can't fault that.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 14 at 1:30am
Does this flowchart, based solely on JM section M help?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 14 at 12:38am
Originally posted by gordon

The problem is that different protest committees (and even international juries) seem to have  widely different opinion on what constitutes serious damage. Some seem to think that damage costing several grand to repair is not serious if the boat can finish the race!
Surely nobody is saying that without qualification?

There is not the slightest suggestion in JM section M that inability to finish a race is a requirement for serious damage.

That was the line of argument that was run and rejected in RYA Appeal 2001/3, which I see is also the source of the 'prudent owner' terminology.

RYA 2001/3
Damage includes something that a prudent owner would repair promptly. Damage includes damage a boat causes to herself. Damage may be serious, even if both boats are able to continue to race.

Surely no-one is saying that a gaping hole, high in the topsides, so that a boat could sail safely under easy trim, but could not power up on one tack, is not 'seriously impaired performance', and therefore, in terms of JM section M3, 'serious damage'?

I don't really think that the 'prudent owner would repair' notion is all that helpful:  anything that a prudent owner would repair must surely diminish either functinoality or value, and therefore the critieria in Case 19 and JM section M will do the job.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 11:57pm
Thank you, Rupert, Gordon, Ed and Jim.

I'm now convinced that a hole in the hull is serious damage, no matter what.

I'm also coming round on scratches and chips.

Looking at Case 19, what I think it is trying to do is to set a lower threshold, below which scratches and chips and so on should NOT be considered to be damage (essentially for purposes of rule 14( b )).  Hence Case 19 introduces the criteria of diminution of market value and diminution of function.

What Case 19 is pointing towards, without quite saying it, is that if there is no diminution in value and no diminution in function or performance, then there is no damage.  I have no difficulty with this.

Case 19 does not address serious damage at all: it's all about the bottom threshold.

What Case 19 and the JM Section M are trying to avoid is stating fixed money values, and embarking on a technical catalogue of what does or does not make the grade.
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