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    Posted: 16 Jan 13 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Bootscooter

So on theis one page we have summerised;
 
1) Why there will (probably) always be a place for the Laser in competitive sailing
 
and
 
2) Why (if it's done right, at the right price) there is a fantastic potential market for something like the Rooster Project X.
 
Hurry up Steve! LOL

Hear hear!

Which brings us neatly round to 'post 1' thread SC wouldn't have even considered Project X if he didn't think there was commercial value in it. The original suggestion was to make redundant laser hulls more attractive and put them back on the wet stuff again instead of going green upside down! In an environmentally conscious world that's a double plus in my book! 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 13 at 12:51pm
Trouble is, to put the hull on the water again with a different rig means spending more money on the rig than you can buy a 2nd hand boat for, so why would you bother? I can only see 2 reasons - 1) the rig is so good it is worth the money, or 2) the rig is cheap enough to make it only the price of a very cheap 2nd hand boat. I can't see 1 and 2 ever happening together.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 13 at 1:08pm
Two types of people like Lasers. 

First type indoctrinated from childhood (most of you lot) in love with the myth of everyone being equal in the 'same' sailboat. Here is the news - you aint - you all are very different sizes and weights and the boat is low volume which means it's weight sensitive so condition dependant some are very more equal than others. 

Second type. 'It's cheap I think I'll get into sailing how difficult can it be' hence the hundreds of boats sitting unused in boat parks. 

Simplistic, and untrue.

There are loads of people, experienced sailors and racers, who sail Lasers because they are by far the best way into good class racing at club level. At my club loads of the best and most active sailors have Lasers, as well as other boats, because on Wed evenings we all go out together and have a ball racing against each other. I've certainly learnt a lot from it that I've transferred to sailing a Contender, and I'm quite sure I'm not alone in that.

It's easy to find things about the Laser that in an ideal world might be different, but then that's true of any class you want to name when it comes down to it. But what makes it work is that it's pretty easy to buy and sail, but there's a load of learning and improvement that can take you beyond that - and there are loads of opportunities to sail against people of all abilities to help you do so.

There aren't 200k+ Lasers scattered around the world because it's a crap boat that survives on clever marketing and the ISAF. There may be a market for the Rooster X, but I wouldn't bet on it being very big, or it being a knockout success - there's nothing very new or radical about Laser alternatives. Until you can teleport 2000 or so of a new class into club parks round the country you are going to find it very hard to seriously challenge the Laser - the class racing far, far outweighs the minor niggles with the boat.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 13 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Two types of people like Lasers.

First type indoctrinated from childhood (most of you lot) in love with the myth of everyone being equal in the 'same' sailboat. Here is the news - you aint - you all are very different sizes and weights and the boat is low volume which means it's weight sensitive so condition dependant some are very more equal than others.
That's a good point that I only learnt through losing good money. If you are not physically suited to a Laser (or any other big class) then it simply doesn't offer equal racing. You are much better off in a boat that suits you to get equal racing.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 13 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by iGRF

First type indoctrinated from childhood (most of you lot) in love with the myth of everyone being equal in the 'same' sailboat. Here is the news - you aint - you all are very different sizes and weights and the boat is low volume which means it's weight sensitive so condition dependant some are very more equal than others.

so you'd have rule in Rugby with a max weight of 1500kg on the pitch at any one time?

you'd ban tall people from hovering in the 6 yard box so they can robot-dance in a football match?

international curling would only allow Scottish and Canadian women over the age of 40?

they'd be a minimum shoe size required to play on a full size tennis court?

you'd have jockeys carrying lead at Aintree?

OR

Would you have a sport where at the highest, most prestigious level the equipment is the same, or within the same rule set through the class system.  Where a young competitor from the provinces of Shanghai, born with sensory issues in her eyes and ears, can STILL rise the very top, both on the water and off it, because of the fundamental truth that the boat is the same the world over, so it comes down to the sailor and training commitment- no matter what their physical or socio-economic background?



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Post Options Post Options   Quote BVS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 13 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by rb_stretch

That's a good point that I only learnt through losing good money. If you are not physically suited to a Laser (or any other big class) then it simply doesn't offer equal racing. You are much better off in a boat that suits you to get equal racing.

 
Maybe true at National and International level, not so at Club level. I'm a few kilo below the ideal weight for a Laser but I'd much rather sail in a good size Laser fleet than in my 'ideal' boat as part of the handicap fleet.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 13 at 2:48pm
Originally posted by BVS

 
Maybe true at National and International level, not so at Club level. I'm a few kilo below the ideal weight for a Laser but I'd much rather sail in a good size Laser fleet than in my 'ideal' boat as part of the handicap fleet.

+1  ... although I fear being underweight is easier to deal with than being over the ideal weight  Embarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Quote robin34024 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 13 at 4:01pm
''fundamental truth that the boat is the same the world over, so it comes down to the sailor and training commitment- no matter what their physical or socio-economic background?''

since i'm only 5'4'' and 54kg, and i just dont fit the laser, since my legs arent long enough, and i cant hike properly, and couldnt even if i was super fit. i also cant afford even a relatively good laser, at 2k+, so, really, i wouldnt argue that it comes down to training and commitment. tall people from the south coast for example have a massive adwantage over short folk from yorkshire..
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 13 at 4:40pm
The problem is that not only am I 15+kg overweight for a Laser, my tall frame simply does not fit and it is impossible to hike.
There is no way that Robin above (54kg, 5'4") and me (96kg, 6'6") could possibly sail on an equal footing unless weight and height did not matter (ie. keelboat). His choices of Topper and Streaker seem eminently sensible to have enjoyable racing and a Phantom is eminently sensible for me. Neither of us would have much fun in a Laser.


Edited by rb_stretch - 16 Jan 13 at 6:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 13 at 5:40pm
sounds like you're both either ends of the average club racer though... so good job there are alternatives.
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