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Cirrus Icon Development |
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blaze720 
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Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635 |
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 Topic: Cirrus Icon DevelopmentPosted: 27 Jul 10 at 8:58am |
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I understand the very natural views of the NS faithful. Frankly if we could have easily used a goodish NS hull form it would have saved a bundle of time and money so that was my first choice as well. However the level of interest in the UK was and is very high but in early testing we became a bit concerned about volume as the 'Flight' hull is a little slight where it counted. (we needed/wanted to carry a wider range of crew weight) It was still a fantastic boat in very many ways and a credit to the drive of the NS class development and to Vic Hammond but it did not quite meet the full specification for Icon.
The 'true' Icon hull in plug form already is wider, has more volume and the hull is longer partly to compensate, and like the to Tasar allow us to run with a proportionately larger jib and smaller main. The centreboard does not seem to change performance to any discernable extent but I will presume it is very slightly less efficient than the NS dagger - a compromise we beleive necesary to widen its appeal here. We are also lowering the floor a tad and making a host of other changes but people here like the NS 'look' and it is very purposeful. So we are, unlike the Tasar retaining a near vertical bow, the angled foredeck (but not as severe as with the NS) etc. It will look a bit like a later NS as I said before if you come from Oz or a slim deplanked MR if from the UK but is also very different now to both in some obvious areas as well. As you see in the video I am still using the NS hull to test out rig etc and it is also modified to carry a centreboard - it is also a lot of fun beyond the testing stuff. It goes very well indeed and although far from optimised it seems to easily outpace boats like the RS200, our own Blaze/Halo class and can have a crack at slower RS400s on many club courses without 'good' downwind legs for them. We do not have Tasars anymore here but it would be faster than them as well - I do not however expect it to beat good Merlins without carrying a spinnaker although on any 2-sail legs I think it will perform at least as well being considerably lighter. The pre-production hulls available soon wll be interesting to say the least - slightly wider on deck and in the water but longer. Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to disappear from this thread now for a while until we have a bit more to talk about ... Mike L. |
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Russell Moore
Newbie 
Joined: 05 Dec 07 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 20 |
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Posted: 27 Jul 10 at 9:32am |
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Peaky, there are many reasons why I sail at CN lake, the main reason is that it is a 15 min drive away, vs an hour + to get to the Harbour, also the harbour is alive with ferries, high speed luxury power boats, yachts etc, etc, and there is a great bunch of people at our little club. Chances of getting to the UK, about zero, been there did that many years ago, now have a family, and a lot less money |
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1973
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JimC
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Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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Posted: 27 Jul 10 at 10:03am |
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I think you're missing my point... Its not about the specification of your particular boat, its just that all through the forums we see a perception that daggerboards and fully battened mainsails put people off classes, yet here are two of the most popular classes in the country, and one has a daggerboard and the other a fully battened sail... |
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RS400atC
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Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
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Posted: 27 Jul 10 at 10:42am |
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The Laser gets away with its daggerboard in many shallow venues because it's a shallow low aspect dagger. It's also pretty robust and cheaply made. I simply would not want a high aspect, high cost efficient daggerboard unless I knew exactly where I was going to sail with it. A bit like a fixed rudder. I also would not choose it for the kind of boat where the crew is not going to be flying a kite. I would have thought that the idea of a two sail boat is partly to make crewing it more accessible, so you don't want to be stressing the crew with caring for x-hundred quids worth of quality foil when you're coming ashore. Particularly where you need to beat into shallow water. The RS400 can sail to windward adequately in 18" of water, with the crew still able to cross the boat. That makes my life a lot easier! Owning an RS400, I think good fully battened rigs are great. Mains can have long competitive lives, shape control is pretty good, the whole thing is pretty vice free, much less hassle than unruly top battens in certain other boats. Fashion has moved on, but the RS400 rig is still a good one in terms of delivering level racing for various crew weights without the mumbo jumbo of equalisation.
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The Moo
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Joined: 01 Jun 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 809 |
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Posted: 29 Jul 10 at 10:56am |
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As a National 12 sailor becoming increasingly frustrated by the lack of really decent later secondhand boats on the market right now, I have been following this thread with some interest.
A couple of things are making me a little hesitant. 1) All the pictures I have seen show the boat without a thwart. I realise thwarts probably aren't cool but with the passing of years some crews will struggle to move around the boat effectively without one. Could it be an option? If the target market includes current N12, Firefly Ent, Graduate sailors or perhaps even RS200/400 sailors I suspect it might be a consideration for some of them too. 2) If the boat is perceived to be an all rounder (all winds all waters) how easy is the skiff style, off the boom mainsheet, to use on very restricted waters when you are responding to shifts/tacking every few seconds? A friend had this arrangement on a Nat 12 used on such a water. He couldn't hack it and reverted to transom sheeting after a while. (He was OK with a normal centre main when he had an RS200.) I have to say it looked alien but I never got to try it.. Would alternative mainsheet arrangements to suit individuals' tastes be feasible? Edited by The Moo |
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JimC
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Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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Posted: 29 Jul 10 at 11:20am |
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I find off the boom to be better than conventional centre sheeting in every respect. I find it hard to beat stern sheeting for really close quarters short distance roll tacking though, but I'd be very suprised if this were a great boat for say river sailing. No boat can be good at everything.
The comment about shortage of secondhand 12s is a bit weird though: I can't imagine that second hand Icons are going to be any easier to find than second hand 12s unless there's initial enthusiasm, lots of sales, then a complete collapse in interest in the boat - in which case you probablty wouldn't want one anyway. Second hand availability is a problem with all the development boats these days: the boats are built so well and last so long why on earth would anyone want to sell one until its way outdated. Its not like a polyester SMOD that gets just a little softer every year so that the top of the fleet is perpetually cycling new boats... Really you need to save up the pennies and get a new Twelve: it won't cost you any more over the long term. |
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cad99uk
Posting king 
Joined: 11 Mar 10 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 187 |
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Posted: 29 Jul 10 at 11:22am |
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I think Mike was talking about having a thwart as an option. Have a look back in this thread.
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Russell Moore
Newbie
Joined: 05 Dec 07 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 20 |
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Posted: 29 Jul 10 at 11:23am |
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Most NS 14s don't have thwarts, and we have sailors in their late 60s still enjoying sailing them sans a thwart. In regards to off the boom sheeting, I love it, and I sail on a small lake in shifty conditions with no real problems. It frees up a lot of space, which makes it so much easier to duck under the boom. Also when hiking hard, it gives the skipper just that little bit of extra upper body support. There are down sides, you need a vang with more power to compensate for the extra down force that floor sheeting gives you, and if you drop the mainsheet, it is harder to retrieve. Other than that, I really enjoy sheeting off the boom. |
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1973
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The Moo
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Joined: 01 Jun 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 809 |
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Posted: 29 Jul 10 at 11:40am |
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Probably a discussion for another thread but I wasn't thinking about a 2nd hand ICON. The projected purchase price for a new one in the first batch is considerably less than a new 12 and comparable to the very best of 2nd hand boats on the rare ocassions when they come on the market. From what I have learned, the DCB which seems to be new 12 of choice is probably not going to suit the sort of sailing I regularly do. Just looking at all options. To bring it back on topic. I would have thought that a light hull (with a bit of rocker) coupled with a tall rig no kite no trapeze might do reasonably well in a river environment but hey I'm no expert! 
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Posted: 29 Jul 10 at 12:03pm |
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The off-boom sheeting is great - more control and more space, and in my opinion a more natural feel. You'll be hooked within 5 minutes of trying. Burghfield is a small lake with islands seemingly everywhere and the Icon is getting pretty good results there. P.S. The final decision hadn't been made last I heard, but I believe the Icon hull will be vinylester or epoxy, not polyester. |
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