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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Another club closure
    Posted: 27 May 22 at 6:15am
Originally posted by Grumpycat

Oh dear . TT, someone criticises your point of view , you get all defensive and you go back to your old ways of posting ream’s and reams of well argued tosh.
I really don’t know why you even bother with this little forum because you don’t seem to like the sport of sailing or sailing in general or clubs or sailors because we don’t all agree we you. 
It must be hard being a messiah that no body follows .  LOL. Me, I am happy being a very naughty boy.  Wink


You Ok hun? Or did Nanny forget your meds again Duncan
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 22 at 6:18am
Originally posted by A2Z

 Isn’t that what fleet  racing is too?</span>




For some people I’m sure it is, but it’s indisputably fairer, hence why any sailing race worth a bean tends to be class racing…

Point taken re the larger handicap events, especially pursuits - they’re a homage to diversity as much as a great way to bring people together from across clubs
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 22 at 6:31am
We're now talking only about racing and the obvious PY discussions. However are clubs closing more due to the general decline of sailing rather than the racing declining? Possibly the former and the racing declining is just symptomatic of that. With pressures of money and time (not including current woes) then sailing is both time and money absorbant, and it is likely people don't want to commit to that. How to overcome? Not sure but providing training and accepting only a proportion of trainees will be retained is probably the only model there is
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Posts: 360 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 22 at 7:15am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by A2Z

 Isn’t that what fleet  racing is too?</span>




For some people I’m sure it is, but it’s indisputably fairer, hence why any sailing race worth a bean tends to be class racing…

Point taken re the larger handicap events, especially pursuits - they’re a homage to diversity as much as a great way to bring people together from across clubs



Not following the logic?

If you believe larger handicap events are a "homage to diversity" and a great way to bring people together then why can't you apply that perspective to a club race on Sunday?

If you can (which would seem logical) then why isn't club racing worth a bean? I suspect your problem is with clubs or more specifically clubs you've been a member of. What is your gripe with your previous clubs? How have you peeved them off? How have they peeved you off?

Those arguments aside: As I said earlier how can a sport that is so exclusive be a "Homage to diversity" anyway?......What kind of diversity are you talking about?  Now I like apples but a barrel full of apples is a barrel full of apples. OK some are a different shape but diverse it ain't. Don't abuse the word TT.

This thread has been about the plight that faces many clubs, The threat posed by commercial pressures. How can traditional clubs be more successful?........All the last few pages of this thread have done is to exposed more prejudice and elitism. Surely there is room for both sides in the Class V's Handicap argument? If you can't cope with that minor level of diversity then there really is no hope for the bigger issues.

Edited by Sussex Lad - 27 May 22 at 7:37am
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 22 at 7:17am
True - inadequate racing is probably only a minor contributory factor to why folks choose other things over organised sailing - which as you say is relatively expensive and time consuming.


I also think the 10% conversion rate on newbies isn't a sustainable outlook either - so how does a sailing club attract back those who maybe sailed when they were younger - either through RYA-style racing or maybe Sea Scouts or college sailing?


Speaking with older sailors recently, a few of them echoed they had a hiatus from organised sailing when bringing up kids or in the middle of careers - so this is probably not something new.  What happened in the early 90's to bring them back onboard?  Did it take a couple of seasons floundering on an ISO to realise a Laser wasn't that bad after all?


People in their 40s and 50s face longer working lives, longer mortgage terms with higher income multipliers and add to that, a cost of living crisis at the prime of their earning potential... if those guys and girls don't drop back in to sailing at some point, then the next generation of volunteers and membership contributions will be lost.


Edited by turnturtle - 27 May 22 at 7:17am
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 22 at 7:22am
Originally posted by maxibuddah

We're now talking only about racing and the obvious PY discussions. However are clubs closing more due to the general decline of sailing rather than the racing declining? Possibly the former and the racing declining is just symptomatic of that. With pressures of money and time (not including current woes) then sailing is both time and money absorbant, and it is likely people don't want to commit to that. How to overcome? Not sure but providing training and accepting only a proportion of trainees will be retained is probably the only model there is

Maxi, it’s totally out of order of you to rather beautifully bring the conversation back to the actual topic of the thread. You should know by now that every topic, even in the absence of iGRF, must descend into yet another debate about PYs. It’s the Law, our own special version of Godwin’s Law.

And Jimbo, love you as I do, it seemed right you got called there; frankly you were sounding like someone unrecovered from a gone-wrong love affair.

And yes, I recognise the irony of, in a discussion forum, trying to make a point by playing the man not the ball 
Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posts: 929 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 22 at 7:22am
Originally posted by NicolaJayne

Originally posted by eric_c

 

What you really want for coaching is somebody who's a good enough sailor and who has some actual talent as a teacher. Another thread maybe.

 The best teacher is not  necessarily the best practitioner  

aso the best of the best   coaoching might be  beneficial to  squeeze that  last  hundredth  out of something  but when your progress  is is  to get from 60 %  into the 90s %   


You don't need to be a super teacher to tell someone that they are using too much kicker and the top of their mainsail is hooked. Explaining why it slow is maybe more involved, but we aren't into why at this point

Any sailor capable of winning a race will know that this is a fact, opinions on when to ease and why will vary but we are talking potentially about educating the people who set their kicker, launch and the sail the race. Learning this one simple thing will improve their experience and they probably need the guy in the boat to do it. I dont think shouting from a RIB works.

Its really basic coaching that is missing I think. Maybe the post race debrief in the bar isnt as well attended post covid?
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 22 at 7:32am
Originally posted by Sussex Lad

Don't abuse the word TT..

noted - 'diversity' covers a far broader social connotation far from reflected in dinghy sailing.  That could also be part of the problem - it is elitist because it is elitist, not because someone's turned the sportif into a time trial event and a few people are discussing it on the internet.

Those winter events are like a tribal gathering - a great place to catch up with people you haven't seen in ages - potential for reasonably good racing too if a few class stalwarts show, or you can race more or less scratch with similar classes.  Considering their history stems from being in the depths of winter when coastal venues are shut, it's a bit of a suffer fest on purpose too.  My experience of them is to set an expectation level lower than you would an Open Meeting and they could just surprise you.  But to invest in that format for week-in, week-out racing?  Not so sure that's proving too popular, or has the thread title changed since I last looked?

But please, see the post above - no intention to zone in on purely the racing format - it's actually not THAT important to me personally given 100% of my current sailing is non-racing and I'd guess no more than 30%ish historically.

What are the wider issues in participation that lead to clubs closing?

At the end of the day, my own purely vested interest is ensuring access to fantastic inland waters in the UK should I wish to use them in the future - and for that, I accept we need clubs who are prepared to coordinate against the bureaucracy of their respective landlords - Scotland gloriously excluded in that analysis.


(ps No issues with any clubs I've been a member of for the past 35 years - nothing but praise for those who run them and work in them)
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 22 at 7:41am
Yep noted Clive - play the game not the player.

Duncan felt the need to get personal, his choice, I've broad shoulders and don't need to justify my decisions, but fair to say I'm getting a lot more TOW in charter boats on the med* than I used to in dinghy ownership in the UK.

(* sssh, but that has been predominantly catamarans, and on occasion, a Laser... I'd forgotten how much fun they are in waves offwind)

Anyway - I've made my point that I think PY racing plays are part in the demise of club based racing; but I do accept this is only a small part of the problem.  So what, in your opinion, are the solutions?  Bearing in mind I think we both probably agree there's quite a difference between an inland sailing club like the one of thread title and the various types of coastal clubs dotted around the UK- some of which only survive due their country club status.


Edited by turnturtle - 27 May 22 at 7:49am
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 22 at 8:03am
On the whole I don't think people are just going to turn up with a boat and teach themsleves sailing like you used to in the 60/70's. Clubs therefore are going to have to provide training to attract new members, or rely on someone else doing that and poaching them. This means therefore there are two options.
1. Clubs must provide training as a lead in to further sailing on the water, whether that be crusing or racing.
2. There will be training clubs which do little else and sailing clubs that the trainees move onto once finished at the training club. 

This could mean the training clubs are not actual clubs but commercial establishments. Is there enough interest to sustain such places other than a few, probably not. There are already places like this, such as Rockley. However there is still a large outgoing to attend something like this. Would you like a week in Poole or the Algarve and I reckon the latter is going to win.

Option 1 means that clubs need to focus on training first and foremost and accept racing is a minority part of their existence, whereas to date for most clubs it is the other way round. I also think for many they are going to have to accept sharing the water with other watercraft, be it SUPs or canoes, etc. Once the interest in paddling a plank around the pond wears off perhaps you can entice them into a boat, afterall why stand when you can sit down?
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