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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 Nov 14 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Originally posted by kneewrecker

As an aside, there's a wonderful article by John Claridge on the FP celebrating the life and contribution of Tony Hibbert.

Saw that article and thought of your 'box rule idea', funnily enough.  Shows it can work, but not to produce a 'boat for everyman".

I dunno- clearly there was an emphasis on Design & Technology in the combined class ethos.  And nothing wrong with that, development classes have brought us wonderful adavances.

However, I could quite imagine a lovely situation where G&T, not D&T, was the popular post-sailing discussion point.  

 D-Zeros, OKs, Lasers and mums n' dads bringing their kid's Aero along with the mummy pig or daddy pig rig... all racing together? 

Yes please, that would be rather lovely.




Edited by kneewrecker - 07 Nov 14 at 2:24pm
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 14 at 2:29pm
Level rating bands, rather than a box rule - simply a gathering of similar boats wanting to have fun on the water together.

Bloody windsurfers, thinking that dinghy sailors want to enjoy themselves.
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 14 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Level rating bands, rather than a box rule - simply a gathering of similar boats wanting to have fun on the water together.

Bloody windsurfers, thinking that dinghy sailors want to enjoy themselves.

lol! but yep... surely worth a try for a club that has nothing to lose?  

 Maybe one whose elected leader is rather cynical about the system anyway, and could give it a summer and report back?  Sure would be less hassle than selling the sailing public another rating system based on boat variables.  

If one particular class proves to be unpopularly fast or slow, it simply slips up the rating band.

Take the Phantom - old woodies race with OKs and Finns, new plastics join in with Blazes and 300s.


Edited by kneewrecker - 07 Nov 14 at 2:38pm
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 14 at 9:16pm
Originally posted by SimonW99

If that means chucking on a radial when it's 18 knots then why not.

Surely the fact that it gives the sailor who has two rigs an unrated advantage over the sailor who only has one rig is enough reason?  

If the "switch rig" sailor wants to change rigs and not get scored (or have their small rig scored separately) then (IMHO) it's fine, but it would be tough if people in a Laser, for example, lost a series because their opposition had access to more rigs. And if it's "only a club race" then isn't it even more important to make sure everything is fair to the person who sails within class rules and at a lower budget? 

If we're dealing with beginners etc it's arguably a different thing. I introduced small sails for beginners to a class I use to run, but we also put mechanisms in place to ensure that those who only had the standard-sized sail were not disadvantaged.

In the end isn't this a difficult question where reasonable people can have different views, and therefore it's more complicated than "why not"?


BTW I have Radial and standard rigs, and I sail multiple hulls and in classes with multiple rigs so I'm not coming from the viewpoint of someone who would be disadvantaged if gear swapping was allowed.


 




Edited by Chris 249 - 07 Nov 14 at 9:32pm
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 14 at 9:22pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

You could do both the things you suggest in your last paragraph, Chris, if your club rules allowed it. You'd not be allowed to race a windsurfer at all at WSC, though, for reasons lost in the mists of time.

Oddly, although we allow Lasers sailors to do whatever they like with rigs, I can't recall a Laser ever winning a handicap race at senior level, although some pretty good sailors have managed the odd 2nd. In fact, when rig-switching was allowed the warning was given that the permission would be withdrawn if they started cleaning up. In practice, however, they continue to enjoy sailing just the way they want to without any issues.

If I COULD do it, I wouldn't - to me it seems unsporting to win races by double dipping. I'd get the advantage of having gear that is rated slower because it is slower at the extremes, plus the advantage of using gear in its optimum wind range.
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 14 at 9:49pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

[QUOTE=SimonW99] it would be tough if people in a Laser, for example, lost a series because their opposition had access to more rigs. 
It is tough when people who sail an old boat get beaten by someone because he bought a new boat which costs considerably more than a second rig, but we don't try to guilt-trip people over it. I don't really see where this attitude ends. Maybe new sails should be subject to a 5-point penalty, or somebody who up-grades their Phantom or Blaze to a carbon mast should take a hit too?

Like you, I'm not coming from the viewpoint of someone who would be disadvantaged  - as a series scorer it is a pain accounting for people swapping rigs, but if it's the same hull and there's a PY available for use, that's good enough for me.
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boatshed View Drop Down
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Posts: 457 		Post Options Post Options   Quote boatshed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 14 at 12:58am
Originally posted by kneewrecker

In an ideal semi-retired, time and cash rich world, my dinghy flotilla would include a Finn for light winds, a Contender for wiring weather and a D-Zero for the odd class event/piss up



Going off thread for a moment....

That's a start but really, you need to dream of  better racing.   Sailing with others (in the same boat) is always better fun.   I see single handers as boats for working, time poor folk; which is why I sail one.

Being semi or fully retired and cash rich should allow a commitment to sail with your mates.   The thing that sticks in my head was watching a good size fleet of 3 crew Etchells doing two or three races a few evenings a week in Auckland Harbour.    First start was 5 pm sharp.   They got back to the dock and the club for a few beers at dusk. 

I could handle that.



   
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 14 at 8:20am
Originally posted by Null

Exactly RS have been super clear from the start that its 3 boats and 3 different classes.  Albeit under one class umbrella.  I think rif swapping should not be encouraged as in my opinion it muddies the water.  Nothing to stop someone doing it, but I think I would want it to count as a different boat in the series and as such score seperately.

Exactly the same as the Laser then. The only real difference is that the Laser sails are (relatively) easily to distinguish from each other whereas the RS ones all look identical aside from a small number on the 'O'. RS should take a leaf out of lasers book and make them really easy to pick out. Put different coloured reinforcing on the corners or something or use a completely different coloured cloth. That way there can be no confusion for the RO over which class someone is sailing.
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 14 at 8:41am
Originally posted by boatshed


Originally posted by kneewrecker

In an ideal semi-retired, time and cash rich world, my dinghy flotilla would include a Finn for light winds, a Contender for wiring weather and a D-Zero for the odd class event/piss up
Going off thread for a moment....That's a start but really, you need to dream of  better racing.   Sailing with others (in the same boat) is always better fun.   I see single handers as boats for working, time poor folk; which is why I sail one.Being semi or fully retired and cash rich should allow a commitment to sail with your mates.   The thing that sticks in my head was watching a good size fleet of 3 crew Etchells doing two or three races a few evenings a week in Auckland Harbour.    First start was 5 pm sharp.   They got back to the dock and the club for a few beers at dusk.  I could handle that.   


You make a very good point, I consider myself chastised for my lack of vision, and momentary lapse of respect for a 505, helmed, of course, by a really hot lingerie model with the sailing reportoire of an Ainslie training partner...

Edited by kneewrecker - 08 Nov 14 at 8:46am
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 14 at 9:17am
Originally posted by jeffers

 

Exactly the same as the Laser then. The only real difference is that the Laser sails are (relatively) easily to distinguish

Actually Lasers are a pain for the RO, why should the RO have to know the subtleties of the sail panel layout and window design to destinguish a Radial from a Standard?  Even worse if you have volunteers in the race box who can hardly tell the difference between a Laser and a Solo ...  I hope RS have given some consideration to the RO's.
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