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Oppostie Gybes, leeward Mark
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damp_freddie View Drop Down
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Posts: 339 		Post Options Post Options   Quote damp_freddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Oppostie Gybes, leeward Mark
    Posted: 23 Jun 10 at 9:39pm
If you were in really light winds in an RS400 then "sailing to the mark" would mean sailing a hot angle, and in our case a gybe

( just having a go at  winding up Jim C on the 400s optimised drag.. .)

What'dya think guys? Hot street legal ? or drop and run to the mark?
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 10 at 9:51pm
Rules say straight line from point of entry into zone to a position beside the mark where boat can commence to turn to round mark

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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 10 at 5:07am

Originally posted by damp_freddie

Suggestion for next version of the rules would be to have the relevant definitions for a rule printed in the pre-amble to each or as a footnote.

Nope:  just make them come up in a pop-up box 'on-hover'.

For a hard copy print version having them on the very last page as they are at present is the most accessible option.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 10 at 5:15am

Originally posted by gordon

Rules say straight line from point of entry into zone to a position beside the mark where boat can commence to turn to round mark

Gordon

C'mon Gordon, the rules don't say anything like that.

That's just how the rules drafters and nearly everyone in the known universe says they should be interpreted.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 10 at 5:19am

Originally posted by jeffers

I do believe the Mark Room does include room to gybe (if required). This is where things might get a little hazy as how much room do you need to gybe, esp. id you have a drop to do as well...

Mark-room to sail to the mark may include room to gybe, that is room to handle and deploy your sails and spars in a seamanlike way, if gybing is the seamanlike thing to do, but only as long as you do not change course off your course to the mark.
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 10 at 7:51am
In fact the standard interpretation of the first part of "mark room - to the mark - is that mark room entitles a boat to occupy a narrrow corridor, a little larger than the the width of the hull and equipment - which in the case of a boat flying a symetrical spinnaker is probably about a boat length in width, taking account of pole + hull + boom - from the point of entry to the required side of the mark.

If a boat sails outside of this corridor then they will have towork hard to  convince the jury that they are taking mark room.

If at point of entry a gybe is necessary to get to the mark it is best t do it immediately.

If a gybe is necessary to round the mark  it is best to do so at the mark.


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Posts: 222 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ColPrice2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 10 at 12:07pm

Quote:-

Mark-Room Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark-room.

"To" has no special definition, so it's from the "mark room circle" to the mark. It's difficult to interpret as "sailing high then gybing" because it doesn't refer to "proper course". It's a bit like going from Land's End to John O'Groats - via Amsterdam.

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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 10 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by ColPrice2002

"To" has no special definition, so it's from the "mark room circle" to the mark. It's difficult to interpret as "sailing high then gybing" because it doesn't refer to "proper course".


Agreed... If you've come in high of the mark and have to run down and you stop whilst doing so then that's just tough. Life is tougher when you're on port tack...
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asterix View Drop Down
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Posts: 621 		Post Options Post Options   Quote asterix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 10 at 1:28pm

So, in the example below (which happened to me on the water - I was the red boat) (with the wind coming up the page) can the leading (green) boat who was clear ahead when it entered the zone legitimately sail high and then gybe so that the following (red) boat has to gybe away from the mark when the courses meet?  Green could have sailed straight to the mark but chose not to so he could carry the genny further (it was light winds) and so as to make sure of rounding and coming out of the mark ahead of red.

 

 



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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 10 at 2:11pm
Well, no doubts under 18.2 that green is entitled to Mark room... So we go to the definition...
Mark-Room Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark-room.

All the way through green is entitled to mark room by that definition.
Whilst green was clear ahead she was right of way boat: R12
I reckon when green gybed onto port an overlap was created, and she ceased to become right of way boat and was required to keep clear of red (R16) but red wasn't required to give green room, (R15) since it was green's actions that gave red ROW. So once the boats were on opposite gybes red was ROW, and thus green was only entitled to room to sail to the mark. She's not yet at the mark - indeed sailing away from it - so I reckon proper course doesn't apply. Thus until red gybes I think green is sailing higher than entitled to. Once red gybes green becomes ROW again. What it would come down to, I suspect was whether the PC found that red could have given green mark room without gybing if green hadn't sailed so high when they were not ROW, but I'm no rules guru.
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