New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Alto - Why?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Alto - Why?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 16>
Author
alstorer View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 02 Aug 07
Location: Cambridge
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2899
Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Alto - Why?
    Posted: 02 Mar 08 at 10:33pm
No, I was there for an ISO open.
Back to Top
alstorer View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 02 Aug 07
Location: Cambridge
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2899
Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 08 at 10:39pm
Originally posted by G.R.F

I've never used one, but don't those normal pole things the old people use
in their old boats have to be moved from one side to the other?

So surely one that can be moved from within the cockpit by means of a
couple of ropes from one side to the other must be better.

Er it's called progress isn't it?

Or is this a luddite sort of reticence.?

I mean, it is SO obvious to me, why is that?


You seem to be argueing against yourself here- preaching "progress" whilst praising a feature of "old fashioned" boats. Surely the "progress" in pole systems from symmetric to assymetric has been to make them simpler to use- not more complex.

As I say, if the pole can be retracted whilst locked central, then that's OK- it would in fact be progress.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 08 at 10:45pm
Originally posted by alstorer


As I say, if the pole can be retracted whilst locked central, then that's OK- it
would in fact be progress.


As far as I can see you can pretty much lock the pole at any angle you
choose to set it. And it will move in and out freely, obviously you are
constrained by the sides of the bow as to how far you can retract it (Why
would you do that anyway?)and you really would need to get it pretty
centred to fully retract.

But I can imagine in the heat of a breezy race it coming down scewed more
often than exactly dead centre.
Back to Top
Guest View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 21 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 08 at 8:56am

That upwind sail plan looks pretty big - I hope you have a BIG crew ... 100kg plus.

 

Back to Top
boatshed View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 12 Apr 05
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 457
Post Options Post Options   Quote boatshed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 08 at 9:16am

Originally posted by Guest#260

That upwind sail plan looks pretty big

Its about the same as a 59er which has no trapeze.  The 59er kite is about 50% bigger as well.

I doubt if it will eat B14s for breakfast as suggested in this thread.   I'd even be surprised if it was quicker than a 59er .  

I predict the Alto will stuggle to grow. 

Steve
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 08 at 9:33am

Originally posted by G.R.F



Er it's called progress isn't it?

Or is this a luddite sort of reticence.?

I mean, it is SO obvious to me, why is that?

.......no, it's about having a kite thats versatile.

after spending quite a while getting the hang of it (it was a struggle), we now appreciate the benefits. I am fortunate in that I've got the same crew for life. Most helms get through crew at an alarming rate (usually because they shout at them) so they never have time to get to grips with a symmetric. The assy wins on that basis.

 I wish you luck with the new boat, it looks pretty good. I await with interest future progress reports

 



Edited by GK.LaserII
Back to Top
alstorer View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 02 Aug 07
Location: Cambridge
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2899
Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 08 at 9:34am
I reckon it'll be able to beat B14s on the water in light winds- but as soon as the B is able to plane upwind (depends upon crew weight, but around 7-11 knots wind speed) it'll be left for dust.

What would be interesting is to see how it stacks up against 5ohs.
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8956
Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 08 at 9:36am

I think it will struggle, too, not because it is a bad boat (i have no clue either way) but because marketing muscle sells boats these days.

Personally, I think the bowsprit is a great idea for confined waters and tricky bits. Very few of the asymmetric boats can even beat our Firefly down a short dead run on a small lake unless it is very windy, as the distance sailed is just too great compared to the gains. Whether it can be better than a well used conventional kite (like say on a 470...) on the sea, I'm sure GRF will let us know in his own inimitable way later in the season...

Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
Back to Top
alstorer View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 02 Aug 07
Location: Cambridge
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2899
Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 08 at 9:39am
Originally posted by G.R.F

Originally posted by alstorer


As I say, if the pole can be retracted whilst locked central, then that's OK- it
would in fact be progress.


As far as I can see you can pretty much lock the pole at any angle you
choose to set it. And it will move in and out freely, obviously you are
constrained by the sides of the bow as to how far you can retract it (Why
would you do that anyway?)and you really would need to get it pretty
centred to fully retract.

But I can imagine in the heat of a breezy race it coming down scewed more
often than exactly dead centre.


The experience from the 4000s and 400s is that they tend to have their pole centered when flying the kite in decent breezes- especially when you start getting appreiciable apparent wind sailing. In those conditions, the controls for tilting the pole become nothing more than an extra thing to worry about during hoists and drops, as they have to be pulled on when hoisting and released when dropping. Progress would be a system that had the moveable pole, but allowed (in breeze) you to raise and drop the kite without touching those controls. Does the Alto allow this?
Back to Top
Iain C View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 16 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1113
Post Options Post Options   Quote Iain C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 08 at 9:48am

Hmmm, not convinced I'm afraid.  I can see that it does have a market and in many ways it's nicer to see an existing hull being developed than yet another brand new design coming out, but to me it just seems that it will have a very short future and I have questions about the hull development.  I say "short future" because if it was really much good then in 50 years of 5o5 development and 20 years of asymmetric sailing you would have though someone would have had that "lightbulb moment" and combined the two.  And I say "tight budget" because from a marketing perspective it looks to have had a pretty serious redesign and I think it may have been better to keep it under wraps or keeping it un-named.  To sail it round as a slightly modded 5o5 for a few years under the Alto name and then for the thing to come back out with a different transom, chines, stem etc would worry me...what else is planned in these days of one designs changing so much? (49er rig/hull, RS800 deck, Mirror rig, Laser controls, Graduate sailplan to name but a few, including of course 5o5 kites!)

I'm most definitely no pre-pubescent but I do sail a boat with a red heart on the sail (when I finish building it) but also a Fireball, and they did try the whole asymm thing on a ball, and it was quicker, but it just flopped, and that boat was converted back...

But most of all I want to go up to an Alto and say "you poor, poor thing, you could have been a proper 5o5 with a flyaway pole and an monster kite..."

I'm not knocking it too much and I wish you the best of luck and TBH reading previous posts I think it will probably be a great boat for your requirements, however I don't really get the design breif of "take a 5o5 hull, put a bigger kite on it and design it so it can go dead downwind too and hope the class takes off", it's the same as "take a used 505 with the big kite on which already goes dead downwind beautifully and sails similar courses to asymms, spend a day learning to gybe it with it's very efficient flyaway pole system, join a class with over 50 years of heritage, and probably get you money back when you sell it..."

RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed"
Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs"
Enterprise GBR21970
Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra"
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 16>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy