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Windward boat

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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Windward boat
    Posted: 20 Jun 07 at 12:52pm

Originally posted by Ian29937

A racing yacht has right of way over a cruising yacht under the collision regs.

Not so, I'm afraid.

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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 07 at 12:57pm

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Or does the fact that both boats are using the ISAF rules take precidence in this case of different races but under the same rules.

RRS applies between boats racing, whether or not they are in the same race.

If you want a fun mental exercise, figure out how rule 18 applies as between boats rounding a mark in opposite directions (which has happened to me at least 3 times now in the Solent).

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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 07 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Or does the fact that both boats are using the ISAF rules take precidence in this case of different races but under the same rules.

RRS applies between boats racing, whether or not they are in the same race.

If you want a fun mental exercise, figure out how rule 18 applies as between boats rounding a mark in opposite directions (which has happened to me at least 3 times now in the Solent).

 

Ouch, my head would hurt...  Please spare me the pain....

 

 

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 07 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

figure out how rule 18 applies as between boats rounding a mark in opposite directions (which has happened to me at least 3 times now in the Solent)


Try Case 26 in the ISAF Casebook...
http://www.sailing.org/rrs2005/casebook2006supplement.pdf
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 07 at 4:56pm
Interesting read, thanks. So rule 18 doesn't apply. I will remember that next time.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 07 at 12:00am

The proper corse part of the rule I find quite confusing, I have on at least 2 occaisions had an assymetric boat purposely bear away and sail below me to gain an overlap to leeward, once they have sailed into my wind shadow, they have luffed above the course to the next mark, claiming that as an assymetric boat, they are entitled to do so, as this is their "proper course". There had been no significant change in wind or sea conditions and were not dinghies, who I agree tend to heat up and soak in most conditions.

In both occaisions I felt this was an attempt to gain and keep an overlap for an upcoming mark, (bowsprit overlapped, but not boat) which otherwise due to the wind shadow they were having difficulty keeping. Forcing me above the 2 boat length circle, so they would have rights after the gybe.

Given that it was their choice to go below, and therefore sail below the course to the next mark, can they then claim that their proper course is then well above the next mark, given that if that was the case, they should have gone above me in the first place?

When I have been sailing assymetrics I have always gybed away, and then come back from below 2 boat lenghts and therefore assumed luffing rights in the same situation, am I just being too polite?

Andy

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 07 at 7:25am
> In both occaisions I felt this was an attempt to gain
> and keep an overlap for an upcoming mark,

I'm not going to claim any great expertise for this, but my understanding is that things like proper course only count for anything when two boats are in a rule interaction situation. You can sail in as silly a way as you like if no-one else is near...

I don't think there's anything especially controversial or even unusual in adjusting your position for best advantage when two boats do come together... Don't we all do that in mark roundings in one way or another? And in this case is there really much practical difference between putting in two gybes and coming from underneath as you do or soaking down and coming from underneath?

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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 07 at 9:36am

Originally posted by andymck

Given that it was their choice to go below, and therefore sail below the course to the next mark, can they then claim that their proper course is then well above the next mark, given that if that was the case, they should have gone above me in the first place?

Yes they can. If they are L with an overlap, they can sail their proper course. As JimC said, they are not obliged to sail their proper course in ordert to put themselves in that position.

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Garry View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 07 at 8:13pm
A significant point worth making on proper course is that its the course you would steer in the absence of other boats.  Therefore if you don't have luffing rights you can not go higher than you would if the windward boat wasn't there.  Andy the assymetric is probably not infringing this rule.  The solution is to go low as they go low (do this early enough so you're not preventing them from keeping clear, thus preventing the overlap, bear up then and come into the mark at a hotter angle and having the option just before the 2bl point to do a quick luff and break any overlap.  There must have been a Y&Y article on this in the last couple of years and its described rather neatly in mark Rushall's latest book.
Garry

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Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 07 at 9:21pm

The situation has arrised on both occaisions with the boat never sailing above the direct course to the mark, until in the wind shadow. As when no other boats were around them, they did not feel the need to go above the direct course, how can they then jusify it when they then are interacting with another boat?

As both incidents occured in the last quarter of the leg, I find it hard to believe that you can claim proper course in this situation. Otherwise they would have gone well above the direct course earlier, and gybed back in, and may have had to give water to the boats on the direct course. I doubt we would allow any symmetrical kited boat to do this, even though some, eg 505 could argue the higher and faster point.

As for sailing low to prevent them from going below you, unless the rules have changed since I was umpiring, unfortunaltly ISAF site not working to check, if a boat is sailing a course to go below you, you cant sail below your proper course unless you then gybe.

 

 

Andy Mck
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