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Daniel Holman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: PY - BANDITS
    Posted: 07 Mar 21 at 8:22pm
My understanding is that Paul Bieker was never front of the fleet good in dinghies, but I think he is a great designer / engineer who I think got into AC late(er) in his career after beginning doing "proper" commercial work on fishing boats etc whilst tooling around in i14s for fun. There is a good article or two in professional boatbuilder from 2003ish.

Regarding Jim C's point above, a generation or two ago, I think that the Richards / Morrisons etc cut their teeth in develpment classes for their own amusement prinicpally, rather than professionally at least at first. These were the breeding grounds for the best and most successful sailors at the time who in many cases crossed over into Olympic classes and had no issue with the technical ones such as FD as they were good at the hands on having designed and built their own N12s / Merlins / I14 back when all of those classes were attracting hundreds of the great and the good at nationals etc.
Nowadays its a bit different with the sausage factory of the RYA system and SMOD olympic classes. I guess that so many of the hot shots (who have the cash) dabble in moths almost takes us back towards the tinkering sensibility.
I think that no entity is going to invest in a product by a  person who can show pretty renders alone, so even now, to get into dinghy design you must have been responsible for something with merit of some sort yourself to be able to get a foothold.
Most dev classes are either heavily invested, productionised and developed to the point where any gains are going to be small, so that is not a route in that many have successfuly taken.
I did something a bit different with the Punk dinghy in 2008 which by a very circuitous route means that I don't struggle to get dinghy design gigs. Then I did a development class boat later. Another way of doing it is per Paul Handley, who I think made a bit of money as a naval architect, and then himself bankrolled the productionisation of a little rotormould (RS Tera) which was eventually sold to a certain well known Romsey based sailing boat vendor. That went well and I think it meant he got the 8S100 gig, then did the K1 independantly. I think he is a decent sailor and wins most of the K1 nationals but was not a household name. 

I've seen a few dinghies by (otherwise great) yacht designers that were lacking because they didn't have that extra insight into ergonomics and technique that end use gives you. Sometimes the guy doing PM for one of those projects can fill in the dinghy specific gaps.

But to cut a long story short, to start a career in yacht design, you get a job in a design office (I think) but to do anything commercially in dinghy design, I think one needs to have designed and or built at least one dinghy of some sort of merit. Nowadays I think product design ability is also important, but that can be subcontracted in as I think Mr Richards does.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 21 at 5:20pm
Yes, Howlett came through the yacht designer route, and to my mind is also an exception to the rule in other ways mentioned in a previous post.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 21 at 1:12pm
Ian Howlett is no slouch in British Moths, but I think that he cut his teeth with Metre boat designs.  I suspect that his route into dinghies was through his connections with Carbospars which saw the Howlett 1a I14 built at Hamble for Damon Roberts and a batch of self build Howlett 1bs built for some top notch sailors including Russell Peters and the MacDonalds who went onto to win the Worlds in SF in theirs.  This was at the moment that Topper International and Laser were about to jump on the skiff bandwagon ... Phil Morrison was spoken for so Howlett was the obvious choice.  Should add that the Howlett Salcombe Yawl is also very fast!  So in Ian Howlett's case I guess that he was (is) a good designer, with good connections at the right place at the right time.

But in light of the previous posters, I don't think you need to be a championship winning sailor to become de rigueur in development classes, but you do need to design boats that attract the right kind of attention.  You also need to do the miles, since the first iteration of your work probably needs refinement to the mark two.  And you need to be around long enough to be around when builders or owners are looking for an alternative.  To be frank most of the designers in these classes do not look to dinghies to pay the bills.

In the glory days of the 70's the demand for dinghies, but more importantly the ton class keelboats provided a much better platform for young designers to get a foothold in the industry.  And in keelboats the advent of Velocity Prediction programmes and CAD have spelt the end of the adventurous owner/designer partnership, I think Rob Humphreys said something along the lines of "you only found out how fast a boat was when you sailed it up from Lymington to Cowes"
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oinks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 21 at 12:28pm
Was Ian Howlett a front-fleet sailor? Not sure he was, but could be wrong.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 21 at 10:30am
Originally posted by CT249

]There's certainly lots of valuable input from development classes, but...

I sometimes wonder if it isn't as much to do with how you get accepted as a designer. Just about all the successful dinghy designers I can think of were front of fleet sailors. Now is that because you need to be a front of fleet sailor to be a successful designer, or is it because without a successful race record no-one else is going to build your designs? So is the background in development class design simply because it provides a platform to get noticed? And, for that matter, a ready point of comparison of how good the designs are.

In yacht design a prospective designer can get a technical education and make a name working for an existing design house, but is there much of an equivalent route in dinghy design? If John Smith who's an average middle of the pack sailor designs a truly wonderful one off boat who's going to know? Or care? But if Jane Jones regularly wins championships in her own design National 12s then folk are definitely going to pay attention.

Now I'm waiting for the paper from @Dan Holman - "the influence of the jug type electric kettle on dinghy design"

Edited by JimC - 07 Mar 21 at 10:34am
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CT249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 21 at 10:48pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Presumably the underwater sections of the Laser will have owed something to the Kirby I14s?   Even if the topsides were based on a sketch on a paper napkin

That's what I thought, particularly because Bruce had been a fairly early exponent of moving to more Ud sections forward, but Bruce said that if there was any such inspiration it must have been subconscious.  

Obviously there is subconscious and semi-conscious transfer of design ideas that no designer could, or should, escape.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 21 at 10:45pm
There's certainly lots of valuable input from development classes, but some boats seem to do well without any direct lineage of the sort, particularly if they are from outside the UK. The standouts would probably be the OK, Optimist, Sunfish and Snipe on an international level.  In other major sailing countries like the USA, Germany, Australia and NZ there's a very significant number of successful one designs that seem to have no such heritage (ie Sabots, Sabres, Zephyrs, Sunbursts, O Jolle, Seggerlings, Impulses, Lightnings, Butterflys, X Boats, etc). 


Edited by CT249 - 06 Mar 21 at 10:50pm
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Daniel Holman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 21 at 10:29pm
Its probably hard to unsee all the boats / cars / chaises longues / kettles that one has ever seen. And probably not beneficial either!
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 21 at 10:12pm
Sometimes the inspiration comes from further afield, such as the American influence on Proctor when it came to the Minisail, but I agree everything is built on the foundations of others.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 21 at 9:21pm
I struggle to think of any successful one design dinghy that does not share lineage from a development or restricted class or a designer that cut their teeth in I14s, Merlins, N12s, Moths, Cherubs, N14s or the Skiff classes ... Fox, Holt, Proctor, Jackson, Howlett, Morrison, Richards, Farr, Bethwaite, Miller, Everest 
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