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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: America's Cup Headlines
    Posted: 13 Jun 17 at 1:42pm
I think that is stretching what can be extrapolated from the championship attendance data.  Demographics are changing regardless of the AC.  Sailing has more competition from other more accessible sports ... cycling, cross fit, SUP, at the same time as its profile is reducing, I remember when dinghy championships were reported in The Times and The Telegraph.

I was cynical of the AC format, but have enjoyed the BT Sport coverage, well at least until Clare Balding turned up.  Twenty minute snappy races with fast foiling multihulls, one step away from failure makes great TV.

I just walked past my local pub, which had the AC race times chalked up on the board outside ... usually reserved for Football or Rugby Internationals!

I am sure that this is the basis for a higher profile for sailing going forward ... not as we know it, but nearly all of the guys involved learnt their trade doing what we do ... plus a few cyclors.
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 17 at 2:48pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

It's interesting to look at what is happening in sailing itself to see if the AC is having an impact. Y&Y's National Attendance Table shows us that in this century multi sailing at national level peaked in 2001-2003, with 415-432 boats or 8.2-7.9% of the total number of boats at nationals. Over the last three years, multi sailing at national has attracted 351, 266 and 249 boats, or 7.5%, 6% and 6.1% of the total. The 351 figure seems to have been a bit of an anomaly, with the previous two years getting 320 and 323 boats.  The total number of boats at nationals has dropped by about 20% in that time, with the biggest drop in the four years since the first foiling-multi AC. 

So...multihull sailing has become a smaller part of a shrinking sport since multis arrived in the AC. It rather makes a mockery of the many who have spent decades claiming that multis would take over once they were allowed in the major events. It also makes it hard to back up any claim that having amazingly fast boats in the AC would attract people to the sport.

Multihulls.... I'm always interested, but never get enough desire to actually part with cash:
 

1) multihulls are stigmatised around UK dinghy sailing communities - jet skier analogy heard often

- the AC may help soften this, as does A-Class providing a foiling platform for those not wanting to spend time swimming around a Moth

- only recently, the SJ winter events coordinated advertising to attract multihull sailors... I've no idea if it was well received, I hope so.... but the last time I was serious about buying a multihull, lack of joint event with dinghies tipped the balance back to monohull.


2) multihulls are BLOODY expensive! And depreciation is terrible.... the value chain just doesn't stack up to take a punt.  Hence anything of real interest to folks like me: F16s, Shadows and maybe the 500 at the beachier-end of the spectrum, just don't have the after-market readily available.  All I get told is to buy a Dart 15.... stuff that!
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Neptune View Drop Down
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Posts: 1314 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 17 at 6:02pm
I really like the idea of the F16 and it should have been a great at pulling the youth fleets together too, but then they went and picked the nacra 15.

I think these are issues with the Uk though, we have a great high performance segment here with 14's, Murti, RS800 and I think in many places people are happier doing that in a cat
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craiggo View Drop Down
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Posts: 1810 		Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 17 at 9:08pm
All the multi mode stuff hurt a lot of cats, F16 included, plus the go to size of cat for the average sailor is 18ft.
The F16 also suffered like the F18 with being a box rule, so designs would get superceded on a regular basis. You aren't going to spend £15k on something for your teenage kids that is out of date in a few years.
The Spitfire was and still is a lovely boat that I really enjoyed sailing but it still feels a little crude up against most hp dinghies. Heavy basic spars, badly laid out control lines etc. Even the latest F18s and A-classes have a very industrial feel to them.
Coming from an inclusive club where we used to have a good mix of dinghies and multihulls racing side by side I am constantly shocked by the anti cat views at some clubs, which are especially crazy when those same clubs already have fleets of hp dinghies that in most cases are as quick it quicker than most popular cats.



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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 17 at 3:11am
David, you may be right - but on the other hand surely if the AC was attracting lots of interest to sailing and multis, as sometimes claimed, then there would be an upsurge in entries?  There's been a similar drop in cat numbers at Australian national titles despite the world's longest running economic growth period, so it's not an issue with the economy.

While I appreciate that national title numbers are not everything, surely something is better than nothing when it comes to tracking the sport. And surely if the AC was turning people onto sailing and onto cats then there would be some evidence of growth in cat sailing at national level?  The cats have been the official class for the AC for about six years now - in sailing terms that is more than enough time for growth to happen. Look at what happened when the "production skiffs" came in (and went) - there was significant growth pretty quickly. As you mentioned, there's growth in more accessible pastimes so why is sailing trying to get its growth by promoting the least accessible part of the whole sport?

It's saddening to read about anti-cat feelings but I've spent enough time as a multi sailor to see the rubbish they throw at monos too. But does the stigma have much to do with what appears to be a worldwide lack of significant growth? For a start, in some places like where I live, years ago the cat opens used to be bigger than any dinghy open - and yet they all faded away. We also have situations where major establishment clubs have run cat, offshore multi and kite events - and yet numbers remain small. Mixed fleet events are small beer down here and almost non-existent for dinghies and yet many more people sail dinghies, so while the factors some of you mention are no doubt significant they can't be the reason why multis are a small minority just about everywhere.

Arguably now the "stigma" of a sort is on fixed-keel monos which are now out of the AC, the VOR and the Olympics, yet in many countries they remain the most popular type. 

As you note, TT, fast multis are just expensive things as well as normally logistically challenging. I love our F18 but man it's a PITA to get to races!   Interesting to hear your views on layout, Craiggo, although I tend to think our F18 and old Taipan were well laid out.


Edited by Chris 249 - 14 Jun 17 at 3:12am
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 17 at 9:10am
Chris 249. I'd be chary about taking the numbers too much at face value but what they do indicate quite clearly is the direction that the trends are taking. From a participation perspective, I was RO for the Sprint 15 (the baby Dart) Nationals a while back and they had a good turn out, a 60+ boat fleet. I doubt though that any of their success can be linked to the use of cats (or Tris) in the AC. Indeed, the problem for the likes of you and I is to clearly establish any direct causal links that will explain the success or failure in any one bit of the sport. As I travel around the UK, I see lots of contributory factors but no one thing that you can simply say "the reason is 'this'".
There is some concern expressed in certain quarters (thought this might well be the informed, but minority view) that some of the travails are the result of top down policy. From my own personal observation, some of the changes we've been subjected too haven't helped the grassroots of the sport. What cannot be denied is that here in the UK, those who administer the sport seem to be in love with the high profile, big money 'stadium events' and see this as being the honey pot that will attract legions of new sailors to the sport. Will greater television/media coverage of events such as the AC and the Olympics attract a new generation of sailors who as yet have no connection at all with the sport? The Jury hasn't even sat yet to consider this.

What though is inescapable is that small boat sailing (both racing and non-competitive on water activities) at the grassroots level is sailing straight towards a demographic cliff edge. If you take those numbers you were working with and them apply a second level of analysis, one that takes age into consideration, the resulting stats can look really scary. Yes, there is a buoyant youth scene at many UK clubs but many of these are 'legacy children' - the offspring of sailors. However, if you look at the attrition rate post participation in the Squad system, one wonders how any sport can be so profligate in the way it 'wastes' the incoming supply of interest.
Taking the sport back towards the elite, which is one of the trends that can be identified might work but without protecting the mainstream 'core' of today's middle aged sailors is a really high risk strategy. Maybe over the next generation there will be a cull of clubs and classes - I certainly see that as more probable than possible.....but that I accept is a UK centric view. Already I see a different dynamic when I go abroad, with a very real possibility that the focus of the sport, as seen by the centres of activity (and excellence) could well shift to the so called 'emerging nations'
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 17 at 10:05am
More than half of our members are in their seventies, committee totally dominated by same.
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 17 at 10:13am
Originally posted by 423zero

More than half of our members are in their seventies, committee totally dominated by same.

The club I am looking to join, well technically already have joined, doesn't have a membership fee.  

It runs the dinghy side purely on Facebook - simply sign up.    It's run as part of a marina leisure complex so the fees are built into the boat storage charges- which are modest at the dinghy end of the spectrum.  

 The rescue cover is part of the dockhand role when racing is scheduled and they also run plenty of family cruising days - where 'races' demand a child is on the foredeck of each Laser participating!

Not a model for everywhere admittedly, no model ever is, but it seems to be growing and full of enthusiastic people and refreshingly different from the UK options.  
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 17 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

but have enjoyed the BT Sport coverage, well at least until Clare Balding turned up.  

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fleaberto View Drop Down
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Posts: 302 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fleaberto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 17 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by fab100


Originally posted by davidyacht

but have enjoyed the BT Sport coverage, well at least until Clare Balding turned up.  

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Yeah, I thought that was a bit weird. Although I guess its turned the programme into a proper 'show' in terms of a bit of build up etc.

Stevie Morrison though - he's brilliant, I love his enthusiasm :-)

I'm hoping to be able to pick up a signal whilst camping over the weekend in order to watch it.....Mrs Fleaberto is probably thinking (hoping) otherwise!
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