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Composite laser mast released

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Composite laser mast released
    Posted: 07 Dec 16 at 8:01pm
Will the Laser be the only boat where insurance premiums go down with a carbon mast?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 16 at 8:10pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Will the Laser be the only boat where insurance premiums go down with a carbon mast?

Carbon masts can be repaired
Metal ones are scrapped.
Personally I've not found ali masts to be the key to cheap premiums.

Alloy top section is not far above my excess.
Yer actual bare tube, anodised any colour you like, is cheaper than a rake of ales and a good curry.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote piglet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 16 at 8:35pm
What will Laser class rules have to say about composite mast repairs?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 16 at 8:57pm
Probably that you can have them repaired by an approved repairer who pays a commission to Laser for every repair ;)

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Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 16 at 9:21pm
Laser have mostly got it right, apart from a few times when it's gone pear shaped but mostly not down to the Laser 1. 

I happen to know that because of the huge volumes of parts they are buying they get them very cheap. The example I was given was a toe strap, they were paying pennies for them, literally pennies. I can't remember the exact figure but it was something like 64p a unit. They retail for something in the region of £50, without looking. Some people look at that and say "how dare they!?" but most see the complete boat price and think "seems reasonable" and pay out. 

It's all very good poking fun at it but in reality you can't buy it cheaper, so in most cases you're better off just sucking it up and buying it. Most of us are sitting here moaning about stuff like this but working for companies that do at least try and make a profit. That's all they are doing is making a business work and if that means selling a mast for more than we might like to pay for it then good for them, so long as it isn't so expensive that people refuse to. The right price for any given part or boat is as much as you can possibly get away with, from a business point of view. If that means you don't make a profit then it's probably that its a bad product or your sales team need a good kicking, if it makes huge profits then who are we to complain, we bought it!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 16 at 11:37pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

Jim et al

Laser, with their 'superior' strategy, have lost more potential sales in recent years than most classes have ever sold in the first place !  (I don't think most other classes are even on their radar either frankly).  Surely that is the real elephant in the room.  

Where is the evidence for that?  You must have done an analysis or else you wouldn't be stating this as fact, so could you give us more information?  Have Laser sales declined more sharply than other classes because of their strict OD rules? 



There is no doubt 'Laser' actually think some changes are needed - they have already undermined the 'totally unchanging' concept themselves. (The 'composite' mast being just the latest mod of several in recent years).   But will the market lap it up or just nod out of passing interest and move on ...?.   

Since when did they have a "totally unchanging" concept? The first major changes occurred something like 1 year after initial launch, if I recall correctly. The timber foils were replaced not too much later, then the sail was replaced....this was all by the '80s. 

There does not seem to have been any "totally unchanging concept".

The question I would ask - would you today as a hypothetical supplier rather be building up Aero sales or attempting to limit the decline of Laser's 'historical' position.   They are opposite ends of their product life-cycles.   I'm betting 'Laser' are still well ahead on unit sales and overall margin - at the moment ... but there is more and more writing on the walls.   I'd be looking over my shoulder.
The whole sport should be looking over its shoulder, because if one of the most important classes in the world is damaged by those who carp about it then the whole sport will be seriously harmed.

The Laser has GAINED market share compared to most of the classes that were around when it was at its peak. The Laser is not the problem with dinghy sailing - it's the other classes that have suffered the big drop in numbers. Why attack one of the few long term success stories?



Edited by Chris 249 - 07 Dec 16 at 11:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 16 at 11:48pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

I've said before on here that the top Laser sailors buy a new rig every couple of weeks and a new hull every year.... ok I didn't really say that but to stay competitive at the top level you need new kit more frequently than many other classes due to the primitive construction (it was designed as a beach boat after all).

There are also a lot of fables about Laser kit. My brother was top 25 in the open standard worlds, for example, and he had one old borrowed sail and one new sail in his entire Laser career. We've had people say that Tom Slingsby, for example, would go into the factory and weigh dozens of masts before selecting them. Tom (who I knew as a sub-junior) has told me to my face that's not true, and that he is not allowed in the factory. My former PhD supervisor was the chief scientist at the Australian Institute of Sport and in charge of the study of the bend characteristics of Laser masts, and he says that the study revealed no surprise at all. Stiffness is proportional to spar weight and the differences (in our sticks, anyway) is negligible. Krystal Weir, former world champ and another of our Olympic Laser reps, didn't have that many sails and like Tom or Michael Blackburn (world standard and Radial champ and Olympic medallist), she was not very gear conscious. Both Tom and Krystal have the attitude that it's silly to need special gear when you have to use supplied kit for the major regatta. Learning to adapt to the minor gear differences you may meet is a skill that is needed for success.

The Laser as launched was developed quite a long way from the initial beach boat concept, by the way. At the time there were several vast multi-national conglomerates operating in the beach boat market in the USA, including some of the world's biggest companies. The Laser was developed into a serious but simple racing boat before the product was launched, because the backers did not have the cash to take on car and missile manufacturers in the beachboat market.


Edited by Chris 249 - 07 Dec 16 at 11:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 16 at 7:51am
Chris, while you are correct that many of the top sailors won't be selecting gear, there are also documented examples of those who will measure mast rake, weigh topmasts, etc. But the vast majority of Laser sailors aren't in either camp, or even doing local open meetings. They are sailing in their club handicap fleet on a Sunday and on a Wednesday night. Some won't even be aware that the Laser is an Olympic class, let alone that a plastic topmast is now allowed. Be interesting to see the reaction at clubs when the first ones filter down to our level.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 16 at 8:49am
Paul Elvstrom was renowned for the hull finish on his own boats, it was usually terrible! He reckoned that a couple of days polishing the bottom was equivalent to one missed wind shift so went sailing instead. 

The top laser guys don't need to buys new sail every year 'cos, as Chris points out, they get one supplied at every regatta  Ermm

I don't think the Laser is a bad boat, but neither is it a great boat. It has a number of shortcomings that make it quite unpleasant for me to sail (I have owned one and sailed several over the years) so I bought something else. It has been demonstrated that when a true one design allows improvements to hull construction and layout (Enterprise and Blaze are the two I have a particular interest in) without reducing weight or changing the hull shape, the new hulls, which may be nicer to sail, are not faster than a well maintained older boat. Laser could make the hulls more durable and introduce a deck layout that was 'shortaRSe friendly (something like a bigger Byte maybe) without making those boats faster than a Standard. They could also introduce a new rig (which probably would make the boat faster but would be a different class in the way that Radial is) which might rejuvenate the boats appeal to younger sailors as well as making it pleasanter to sail. I can't see how that would be bad for the class or the manufacturer, or the sailing public.......


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 08 Dec 16 at 9:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 16 at 8:52am
I have no problem with Laser (or any other class) updating periodically. Lasers issue seems to be the slightly haphazard manner in which it happens. the composite mast has been in the pipeline for years and years, but then gets introduced with just a few months notice. Meanwhile, in the US, you can't eve get a new sail.
If the ILCA, rights owners and builders published a 10-15 year plan it would provide some assurance and certainty as to the future of the class. Who would buy a new Laser today not knowing what the future holds?

Edited by A2Z - 08 Dec 16 at 8:52am
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