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rb_stretch View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 Dec 14 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by Brass


It doesn't take much extension and analogy to get from two parties making an agreement in the same material terms with ONE third party, to two parties each making an agreement in the same terms with TWO different parties with the same result of an agreed position as between the parties.


Did look up Satanita and just had another look, but obviously not looking deep enough to find any criticism of it (I'm not a lawyer so maybe my search terms are not appropriate).

However I think the paragraph I quote above is unsafe, since RRS may be overruled by NoR, SIs etc and the parties not sharing the same third party would not know the amendments so would have to resort to IRPCS. Unless I've got that wrong as well!

Interestingly my search did throw up that IRPCS is used instead of RRS Part 2 at night which I didn't know, but is obvious when you think about it.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 14 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by rb_stretch

Apologies for becoming a bit pedantic here, but I'm actually interested. In the cited case it states that RRS are in effect a private contract between the race organiser and the participants. Given that a boat racing in another regatta is technically under a separate contract, I would therefore conclude that even if another boat is racing (but with a different organiser - it does happen) you would still be obliged to follow IRPCS not RRS in the eyes of the law.

Sorry about the thread drift everyone else!
If you can be bothered to do the google search for Satanita you will see that there has been some contemporary critique of the reasoning supporting the conclusion that there was a contract.  Likewise, Tourrella j in Juno v Endeavour didn't do a lot to demonstrate the ingredients of a contract.

Modern Australian judges would probably avoid 'contract' and talk about an 'agreement'.

Nevertheless, these are eminent judges (Torrella j was an International Sailing Judge as well), in very superior courts.  Their judgements are generally considered to be well-reasoned, regardless of which, they form binding precedents within their jurisdictions, and will be quite persuasive to other courts.

Satanita is quite widely relied on outside marine law, as standing for the proposition that where each of two parties make an agreement concerning their behavior to one another with a third party, that constitutes an agreement between those parties.

It doesn't take much extension and analogy to get from two parties making an agreement in the same material terms with ONE third party, to two parties each making an agreement in the same terms with TWO different parties with the same result of an agreed position as between the parties.

The RRS does not become the agreement:  the agreement is to abide by the RRS.
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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 14 at 11:42am
Originally posted by Brass

 

It really doesn't matter whether you are convinced or not.  Those decisions represent the law.

....

Certainly, if in doubt whether another boat is racing (or otherwise subject to the RRS) or not, then apply IRPCAS.  That's a natural consequence of the Preamble to Part 2 of the RRS:

When a boat sailing under these rules meets a vessel that is not, she shall comply with the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (IRPCAS) or government right-of-way rules.


Apologies for becoming a bit pedantic here, but I'm actually interested. In the cited case it states that RRS are in effect a private contract between the race organiser and the participants. Given that a boat racing in another regatta is technically under a separate contract, I would therefore conclude that even if another boat is racing (but with a different organiser - it does happen) you would still be obliged to follow IRPCS not RRS in the eyes of the law.

Sorry about the thread drift everyone else!
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 14 at 11:12am
[QUOTE=rb_stretch] [QUOTE=B
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 14 at 9:26am
Thanks Brass 8.02. Nicely clarified.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 14 at 8:07am
Originally posted by Peaky

You could have more than one Proper Course, couldn't you? Many boats will make near enough the same VMG downwind across quite a broad range of angles, may be from 130 to 160 degrees. That would enable a 30 degree luff and still be on proper course.
Well, proper course is defined as A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible, so logically there can be only one of them.

But perhaps we should say 'more than one course may be a boat's proper course'.

A boat's polars very rarely contain an arc of a perfect circle.

The most obvious example is one or other tack on a downwind leg.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 14 at 8:02am
Originally posted by Do Different

 
I thought that there was a general requirement for an overtaking boat to keep clear.
Originally posted by Lukepiewalker

Boats are either clear ahead, clear astern, or overlapped. There is no concept of overtaking (although apparently windsurfers still have it.

Originally posted by rb_stretch

 
To some extent it is that, that causes the problem. It always seems to be that the most confusing situations for all are when Right of Way changes in rapid succession, which is exactly what happens when overtaking.

Curiously IRPCS rule 13 is specifically about overtaking and on the sea IRPCS take precedence over RRS, which makes this even more confusing.

It is probably why I got confused because I've owned cruising boats for over 10 years, which is more time than I have raced dinghies.
See my previous post.  The RRS most definitely do act in place of the IRPCAS between boats that are racing.

Indeed, IRPCAS Rule 13 imposes a general requirement for overtaking vessels to keep out of the way of vessels being overtaken.  The rule (and the obligation to keep out of the way) applies all the time from when one boat is 'coming up with another from a direction [astern of her]' until she 'past and clear'

One of the expectations of the RRS is that boats will overtake one another, and may tactically engage offensively and defensively while doing so.  For that reason the RRS differ very significantly from IRPCAS with respect to overtaking.

While we try to avoid using the language of 'overtaking' in rules discussions, the concept is pretty simple and valid.

The RRS breaks the 'overtaking' situation up as follows:
  1. Firstly, boats on opposite tacks are bound by rule 10, Port/Stbd, and rule 12 does not apply.
  2. Between boats on the same tack, where one is clear astern of the other, the boat clear astern must keep clear of the boat clear ahead (rule 12).
  3. Once boats on the same tack become overlapped, the windward boat must keep clear of the leeward boat (rule 11).
  4. Once one or other of two boats overlapped on the same tack draws clear ahead or falls clear astern, the boat clear astern must keep clear (rule 12).
The RRS contemplate that there will be instantaneous transitions of right of way.  This is dealt with by rule 15 
15 ACQUIRING RIGHT OF WAY
When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear, unless she acquires right of way because of the other boat’s actions.

Yes, it requires some forethought to anticipate right of way transitions and the effect of rule 15, but it's really pretty simple.  I can't see anything in the rules that is inherently confusing.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 14 at 7:35am
[QUOTE=rb_stretch]on the sea
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 14 at 9:51pm
You could have more than one Proper Course, couldn't you? Many boats will make near enough the same VMG downwind across quite a broad range of angles, may be from 130 to 160 degrees. That would enable a 30 degree luff and still be on proper course.
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