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Laser 161752 Tynemouth |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Is the Cadet finished? |
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Chris 249 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 07 Sep 14 at 12:20pm |
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Just shows how relative it all is, isn't it - when I was a kid the Cadet looked vast, and the Feva would have looked like an ocean liner. Our first boat was a Manly Junior - similar to the Cadet but 2' shorter. In our typical summer breezes on Sydney Harbour it was (and still is) plenty of boat for two little kids. "Old fashioned" may also be subjective; there are kids moving into 29ers today who would regard them as prehistoric in the same way that kids have (IMHO) always regarded anything that was not created within their memory. A couple of year ago I asked a young kid at our club whether it bothered him that the longboard windsurfer he sailed was older than a shortboard or a kite. His reply was "oh, are they?" To a very sharp tech-head kid like that, everything older than 4 years was equally old, and equally new.
Edited by Chris 249 - 07 Sep 14 at 1:08pm |
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Assassin ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 24 Jul 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 25 |
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Well Chris, you are going to have to do some more research before stating opinions as facts.
In Australia the Cadet is sailed in 3 states out of 7 with numbers rapidly dwindling and NSW (Australia's sailing capital) not interested at all except for a small school. Your Flying 11 easily dominates it. For you to say "powering along" couldn't be further from reality. And how do you fit into your argument regarding no current trend flourishing the fact that 184 RS Feva's just completed a World Champs in Carnac France. Reasonably modern asymmetric junior boat growing activity in leaps and bounds. I am not knocking the Cadet, I learnt to sail in one and have travelled to many parts of the world for Cadet competitions, my kids sailed them and I have owned many but with what is going on with sailing developments worldwide, my grand kids will not sail them. They will also want to drive the newest car, live in the most modern house and use the most up to date phone. Cheers.
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Brass ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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What in the world is a "designated world Junior 2 hander"? Since when has ISAF or any other international body been "designating' junior classes? I was around in Melbourne when International Cadets were the latest and greatest new thing from "overseas". As I recall, the VJ, MJ, FA etc sailors in Sydney took one look at them and went back to sailing. All understandable to a degree, VJ, MJ and FA would be an uncomfortable handful in a Port Phillip chop. I've had the odd coach blow in my ear that the Feva is heavy and unresponsive, particularly to fore and aft trim, and thus while it looks like a skiff, it doesn't behave like one: sort of like a 29er or other proper skiff with big heavy training wheels. Can't speak for outside NSW, but kids seem to be stepping from F11, 420 and maybe B13 into 29ers. Would that be right? |
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Assassin ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 24 Jul 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 25 |
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Ok, there are a few saying a lot but not coming up with alternatives.
What's wrong with having a supported, designated pathways 2-hander? Something that developing sailing nations could progress opportunities into like we have seen in the Laser class in recent years. To create a worldwide network of product, build and supply to create an effective charter basis. Clubs can still have their Mirrors, Cadets or MJ 's if they wish or they can elect to develop a future. So rather than shoot me down offer something. In my opinion Bass, your last paragraph is spot on. From an Optimist point of view, the front 10% are transitioning straight into 29ers/ 420 very effectively, the next 15% are going to 4.7 Lasers and the rest are dropping out of the sport. A fantastic 2-hander may assist retain more sailors. Cheers. |
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Chris 249 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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For someone who claims to be asking merely for opinions you are very aggressive. I do know a bit about the sailing scene in the place I spent most of my life (which is not necessarily the dinghy capital BTW) and classes like the Flying 11 and Ant which my family have been into for a couple of generations. As for doing my research, I am going off information like a database of national titles attendance that has something in the very rough region of 9000 date points for about 650 classes, as well as family experience running junior racing in F11s and other classes. Surely that is research. Yes, the Cadet is sailed in 4 states out of 7 - significant fleets in the three southern states (as I said) and the new-ish and small NSW fleet. The Flying 11 is sailed overwhelmingly in one state (NSW) with 7 boats at Royal Tassie apparently the only other fleet in the country; the other clubs outside NSW seem to only have about 2-3 boats each. The 11 is a great class that is concentrated in one area and (partly as a result of its concentration) gets 20 more boats to its nationals than the Cadet - but that is exactly the same as it was 13 years ago. In terms of average national turnout the Cadet has gained over the F11 compared to their fleets a decade ago (with varying results in the middle of the decade since), so how you see one as a powerhouse and one as dwindling I do not understand. To use the F11 as your only comparison between Cadets and "high performance" trainers is ignoring the fact that other "high performance" trainers down here have suffered badly, with the 303 and Vee Jay dying over the last few years and the Ant dwindling. Compared to those classes, the Cadet is doing well. We certainly do not all want to live in the newest house (it's quite the opposite where I live now, older houses and suburbs cost the most and have the cachet) and if phones were a good comparison in all ways, prestige boatbuilders would be competing to create the smallest possible yacht; the Swan that fits in your pocket. 'Taint so. If your grandkids are just chasing what's new, why would they even look at a sport that started in the 1800s? If newer is better, sailing and sailing dinghies are dead meat. Luckily, there's more to it than that. I like the Feva, but I suspect it's for the opposite reasons to you. EDITED TO SHORTEN POST AND INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING; PS - about the comment that the "skiff trend" was not really going anywhere; the total number for doublehanded skiff types from the Y&Y Nationals Attendance Table was 370 in 2000, 355 in 2001, 336 in 2002, 313 in 2003. In contrast over the last five seasons the sector has dropped to 203, 249, 231, 269 and 183 boats despite an INCREASE in the number of dinghies at national titles as a whole. Therefore there is little reason to see any trend towards skiff types. Edited by Chris 249 - 08 Sep 14 at 2:20am |
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Chris 249 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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1 - The Feva could be a great widespread international class but why assume that means that the Cadet has to be "finished"? 2 - Why assume that it's a choice between either having Mirrors, Cadets or MJs or having a future? 3 - People have been offering something - the point of view that the Cadet remains a valid and worthwhile class that should be supported for several reasons, such as its suitability for smaller kids and/or rougher conditions. There's plenty of ways that sailing can develop that do not include killing older classes; building old classes in new forms of cheaper/simpler/tougher construction may be one possible way. Changing the age limits in a class like the Cadet (to allow for the fact that kids are bigger these days) is another possibility. Forming an international grouping of various "national" or smaller international classes could create interesting benefits. Any assumption that we need new boats may overlook the fact that the sectors of the sport that replace classes most often tend to do poorly. It's possible to love and support new sports gear and disciplines (as many of us do) and to also see that the old gear is very valuable. Edited by Chris 249 - 08 Sep 14 at 2:22am |
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Assassin ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 24 Jul 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 25 |
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Fair enough, good post. Ill get back in my box.
Cheers.
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Brass ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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Because a 'pathway' boat is a boat selected by an elite development program, into which considerable money is invested, as likely to assist the goals of elite development: the 'pathway' is the pathway to Olympic gold medals. There is no international elite development program. There is no suggestion that designating a boat as a 'pathways' boat is likely to help the sport as a whole, or even the class: see the Olympic Curse thread.
Yeah, like 'developing sailing nations' really need the old white world pushing a particular type of boat down their throats. OK, so the development of 'vernacular' performance dinghies in the third world isn't quite thriving: You could probably count the number of East African dinghy designers on less than one hand, but if you are contemplating a world-wide commercial chartering model, let the money men who stand to make profits out of it do the promotion: don't expect ISAF to do it.
I don't think I'm getting this correctly. You say the top 10% of Optimist sailors are going to 2 handed dinghies 'very effectively'
You say that only the second rank of Opti sailors (10 to 25 percentile) is going to Laser 4.7
You say that the rest (presumably of Opti sailors in percentiles below 25th) are dropping out of the sport.
The world is rife with 'fantastic 2 handers', some of them even '2 hullers' <g>. Edited by Brass - 08 Sep 14 at 2:59am |
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Assassin ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 24 Jul 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 25 |
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Brass ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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Brass says, Because a 'pathway' boat is a boat selected by an elite development program, into which considerable money is invested, as likely to assist the goals of elite development: the 'pathway' is the pathway to Olympic gold medals. Seriously? Many "pathway" programs are geared towards Junior development, Youth development, Club development, not just towards Olympic gold medals. You cant tell me that the link that was posted on this thread a few days ago was a medal making crusade, surely it was a "sailing development/pathway program designed to maximise growth and opportunity. Seriously. Are you in AUS or the UK? I certainly am telling you that in this link http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/youthjunior/information/Pages/ClassRecognition.aspx 'Pathway Classes' is defined as
Yachting Australia uses the term 'pathways' somewhat more broadly, and I think has avoided defining 'Pathway Classes', leaving it up to MYA development squads to choose the classes they will focus on. Brass says There is no international elite development program. Not talking about elite, just a Junior 2-handed boat. Brass says There is no suggestion that designating a boat as a 'pathways' boat is likely to help the sport as a whole, or even the class: see the Olympic Curse thread. Yes there is, I'm suggesting it and we're discussing it. Brass, it's so easy now to jump on a plane and fly to a venue with my sails under my arm and charter a boat for an event. I reguarly do it with Optimists, have done it many times with Lasers, and could have done it at the Feva Worlds. Now if there was a universally accepted 2-hander I could have the opportunity to go to more venues. Japan, Indonesia, NZ etc, etc. OK, so let's lose the 'pathways' word. You are talking about a single ISAF endorsed and supported class. and you think that ISAF dont need to spend a dime, just promote, support and enjoy.
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