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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 Sep 14 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by Peaky

The Cadet looked old fashioned and grim to me 30 years ago as an eight year old, and time has done it no favours since then.

Edit: Which isn't, of course, to say that you couldn't be an immensely proud owner of one. If you love your boat that's all that matters, but they always, even as a young child, looked ridiculously small to my eyes.

Just shows how relative it all is, isn't it - when I was a kid the Cadet looked vast, and the Feva would have looked like an ocean liner.

Our first boat was a Manly Junior - similar to the Cadet but 2' shorter. In our typical summer breezes on Sydney Harbour it was (and still is) plenty of boat for two little kids.

"Old fashioned" may also be subjective; there are kids moving into 29ers today who would regard them as prehistoric in the same way that kids have (IMHO) always regarded anything that was not created within their memory. A couple of year ago I asked a young kid at our club whether it bothered him that the longboard windsurfer he sailed was older than a shortboard or a kite. His reply was "oh, are they?" To a very sharp tech-head kid like that, everything older than 4 years was equally old, and equally new.


Edited by Chris 249 - 07 Sep 14 at 1:08pm
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Well Chris, you are going to have to do some more research before stating opinions as facts.
In Australia the Cadet is sailed in 3 states out of 7 with numbers rapidly dwindling and NSW (Australia's sailing capital) not interested at all except for a small school. Your Flying 11 easily dominates it.
For you to say "powering along" couldn't be further from reality.
And how do you fit into your argument regarding no current trend flourishing the fact that 184 RS Feva's just completed a World Champs in Carnac France. Reasonably modern asymmetric junior boat growing activity in leaps and bounds. 
I am not knocking the Cadet, I learnt to sail in one and have travelled to many parts of the world for Cadet competitions, my kids sailed them and I have owned many but with what is going on with sailing developments worldwide, my grand kids will not sail them. 
They will also want to drive the newest car, live in the most modern house and use the most up to date phone. 
Cheers.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 14 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by Assassin

You say that Cadets are much smaller than the Feva and yet the Cadet is maintaining it's under 18 age group- quite rediculous.

Again, I'm not out here to promote the Feva but I would love to get opinions on what should be the designated world Junior 2-hander for an under 16 age group and it appears that the Cadet should be rightly dropped from consideration.

Cheers.

Fine, if you want to ignore many parts of the world when you are selecting the "designated world 2-hander".

Down here in Oz we have had decades of development of junior classes that are much lighter, proportionately much faster and more modern than the Cadet - and yet the Cadet remains THE junior doublehander class for much of the country. Some opposing classes like the Flying Ant (a restricted-development trap-powered baby Cherub) and 303 (baby 505, complete with trap) are dwindling while the Cadet is powering along - probably because it can handle the rough conditions of our southern states.

I have never sailed a Cadet, didn't see one first-hand until I was middle-aged, and come from a high-performance heritage. Our kids started on Ants, Formula 16 cats and Tornadoes and I reckon the Feva is a great boat so I have no reason to be biased but the fact is that the Cadet IS working in many ways.

What in the world is a "designated world Junior 2 hander"?

Since when has ISAF or any other international body been "designating' junior classes?

I was around in Melbourne when International Cadets were the latest and greatest new thing from "overseas".  As I recall, the VJ, MJ, FA etc sailors in Sydney took one look at them and went back to sailing.  All understandable to a degree, VJ, MJ and FA would be an uncomfortable handful in a Port Phillip chop.

I've had the odd coach blow in my ear that the Feva is heavy and unresponsive, particularly to fore and aft trim, and thus while it looks like a skiff, it doesn't behave like one:  sort of like a 29er or other proper skiff with big heavy training wheels.

Can't speak for outside NSW, but kids seem to be stepping from F11, 420 and maybe B13 into 29ers.  Would that be right?
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Ok, there are a few saying a lot but not coming up with alternatives.

What's wrong with having a supported, designated pathways 2-hander? Something that developing sailing nations could progress opportunities into like we have seen in the Laser class in recent years. To create a worldwide network of product, build and supply to create an effective charter basis.
Clubs can still have their Mirrors, Cadets or MJ 's if they wish or they can elect to develop a future.
So rather than shoot me down offer something.
In my opinion Bass, your last paragraph is spot on. From an Optimist point of view, the front 10% are transitioning straight into 29ers/ 420 very effectively, the next 15% are going to 4.7 Lasers and the rest are dropping out of the sport.
A fantastic 2-hander may assist retain more sailors.

Cheers.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 14 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by Assassin

Well Chris, you are going to have to do some more research before stating opinions as facts.
In Australia the Cadet is sailed in 3 states out of 7 with numbers rapidly dwindling and NSW (Australia's sailing capital) not interested at all except for a small school. Your Flying 11 easily dominates it.
For you to say "powering along" couldn't be further from reality.
And how do you fit into your argument regarding no current trend flourishing the fact that 184 RS Feva's just completed a World Champs in Carnac France. Reasonably modern asymmetric junior boat growing activity in leaps and bounds. 
I am not knocking the Cadet, I learnt to sail in one and have travelled to many parts of the world for Cadet competitions, my kids sailed them and I have owned many but with what is going on with sailing developments worldwide, my grand kids will not sail them. 
They will also want to drive the newest car, live in the most modern house and use the most up to date phone. 
Cheers.

For someone who claims to be asking merely for opinions you are very aggressive. I do know a bit about the sailing scene in the place I spent most of my life (which is not necessarily the dinghy capital BTW) and classes like the Flying 11 and Ant which my family have been into for a couple of generations.

As for doing my research, I am going off information like a database of national titles attendance that has something in the very rough region of 9000 date points for about 650 classes, as well as family experience running junior racing in F11s and other classes. Surely that is research.

Yes, the Cadet is sailed in 4 states out of 7 - significant fleets in the three southern states (as I said) and the new-ish and small NSW fleet.  The Flying 11 is sailed overwhelmingly in one state (NSW) with 7 boats at Royal Tassie apparently the only other fleet in the country; the other clubs outside NSW seem to only have about 2-3 boats each. The 11 is a great class that is concentrated in one area and (partly as a result of its concentration) gets 20 more boats to its nationals than the Cadet - but that is exactly the same as it was 13 years ago. In terms of average national turnout the Cadet has gained over the F11 compared to their fleets a decade ago (with varying results in the middle of the decade since), so how you see one as a powerhouse and one as dwindling I do not understand.

To use the F11 as your only comparison between Cadets and "high performance" trainers is ignoring the fact that other "high performance" trainers down here have suffered badly, with the 303 and Vee Jay dying over the last few years and the Ant dwindling. Compared to those classes, the Cadet is doing well.

We certainly do not all want to live in the newest house (it's quite the opposite where I live now, older houses and suburbs cost the most and have the cachet) and if phones were a good comparison in all ways, prestige boatbuilders would be competing to create the smallest possible yacht; the Swan that fits in your pocket. 'Taint so.

If your grandkids are just chasing what's new, why would they even look at a sport that started in the 1800s? If newer is better, sailing and sailing dinghies are dead meat. Luckily, there's more to it than that.

I like the Feva, but I suspect it's for the opposite reasons to you. 

EDITED TO SHORTEN POST AND INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING;

PS - about the comment that the "skiff trend" was not really going anywhere; the total number for doublehanded skiff types from the Y&Y Nationals Attendance Table was 370 in 2000, 355 in 2001, 336 in 2002, 313 in 2003. In contrast over the last five seasons the sector has dropped to 203, 249, 231, 269 and 183 boats despite an INCREASE in the number of dinghies at national titles as a whole. Therefore there is little reason to see any trend towards skiff types.






Edited by Chris 249 - 08 Sep 14 at 2:20am
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Assassin

Ok, there are a few saying a lot but not coming up with alternatives.

What's wrong with having a supported, designated pathways 2-hander? Something that developing sailing nations could progress opportunities into like we have seen in the Laser class in recent years. To create a worldwide network of product, build and supply to create an effective charter basis.
Clubs can still have their Mirrors, Cadets or MJ 's if they wish or they can elect to develop a future.
So rather than shoot me down offer something.
In my opinion Bass, your last paragraph is spot on. From an Optimist point of view, the front 10% are transitioning straight into 29ers/ 420 very effectively, the next 15% are going to 4.7 Lasers and the rest are dropping out of the sport.
A fantastic 2-hander may assist retain more sailors.

Cheers.


1 - The Feva could be a great widespread international class but why assume that means that the Cadet has to be "finished"?

2 - Why assume that it's a choice between either having Mirrors, Cadets or MJs or having a future?

3 - People have been offering something - the point of view that the Cadet remains a valid and worthwhile class that should be supported for several reasons, such as its suitability for smaller kids and/or rougher conditions. 

There's plenty of ways that sailing can develop that do not include killing older classes; building old classes in new forms of cheaper/simpler/tougher construction may be one possible way. Changing the age limits in a class like the Cadet (to allow for the fact that kids are bigger these days) is another possibility. Forming an international grouping of various "national" or smaller international classes could create interesting benefits. 

Any assumption that we need new boats may overlook the fact that the sectors of the sport that replace classes most often tend to do poorly. It's possible to love and support new sports gear and disciplines (as many of us do) and to also see that the old gear is very valuable. 







Edited by Chris 249 - 08 Sep 14 at 2:22am
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Fair enough, good post. Ill get back in my box.
 
Cheers.
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Originally posted by Assassin

 What's wrong with having a supported, designated pathways 2-hander?

Because a 'pathway' boat is a boat selected by an elite development program, into which considerable money is invested, as likely to assist the goals of elite development:  the 'pathway' is the pathway to Olympic gold medals.

There is no international elite development program.

There is no suggestion that designating a boat as a 'pathways' boat is likely to help the sport as a whole, or even the class:  see the Olympic Curse thread.

Originally posted by Assassin

 Something that developing sailing nations could progress opportunities into like we have seen in the Laser class in recent years. To create a worldwide network of product, build and supply to create an effective charter basis. 

Yeah, like 'developing sailing nations' really need the old white world pushing a particular type of boat down their throats.

OK, so the development of 'vernacular' performance dinghies in the third world isn't quite thriving:  You could probably count the number of East African dinghy designers on less than one hand, but if you are contemplating a world-wide commercial chartering model, let the money men who stand to make profits out of it do the promotion:  don't expect ISAF to do it.

Originally posted by Assassin

 From an Optimist point of view, the front 10% are transitioning straight into 29ers/ 420 very effectively, the next 15% are going to 4.7 Lasers and the rest are dropping out of the sport.  

I don't think I'm getting this correctly.

You say the top 10% of Optimist sailors are going to 2 handed dinghies 'very effectively'
  • I would have thought that at least half the top 10%, and quite possibly more, would be going up the Laser single hander route (or was that to be taken for granted?)
  • Are you really saying that an Opti sailor can step straight into a 29er without any transition through a less powerful 2 hand, 3 sail boat?  Wow!  I would have thought it would be a very wet transition.  420 I can understand. The Feva I can understand:  at least there is a coloured sail that goes up and down and another sailor to talk to.  Is there maybe an 'invisible' transition through club class two handers?
You say that only the second rank of Opti sailors (10 to 25 percentile) is going to Laser 4.7
  • Again I would have thought that [probably a little more than] half of these would be going into two handed boats;
You say that the rest (presumably of Opti sailors in percentiles below 25th) are dropping out of the sport.
  • I would find this mildly surprising, if true.  Perhaps you are exaggerating.
  • Whatever, the RYA is probably doing better than any other National Authority, in terms of fostering non-competitive pathways:  instructing, RIB driving, Yachtmaster, and so on:  these pathways should be sucking the less successful out of the Squads stream, and keeping them engaged in the sport or pastime all the time.  Doubtless it could be done better, and in other places in the world it probably needs to be done much better. 

Originally posted by Assassin

A fantastic 2-hander may assist retain more sailors.

The world is rife with 'fantastic 2 handers', some of them even '2 hullers' <g>.




Edited by Brass - 08 Sep 14 at 2:59am
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Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by Assassin

 What's wrong with having a supported, designated pathways 2-hander?

Brass says,
Because a 'pathway' boat is a boat selected by an elite development program, into which considerable money is invested, as likely to assist the goals of elite development:  the 'pathway' is the pathway to Olympic gold medals.
 
Seriously? Many "pathway" programs are geared towards Junior development, Youth development, Club development, not just towards Olympic gold medals. You cant tell me that the link that was posted on this thread a few days ago was a medal making crusade, surely it was a "sailing development/pathway program designed to maximise growth and opportunity.

Brass says
There is no international elite development program.
 
Not talking about elite, just a Junior 2-handed boat.

Brass says
There is no suggestion that designating a boat as a 'pathways' boat is likely to help the sport as a whole, or even the class:  see the Olympic Curse thread.
 
Yes there is, I'm suggesting it and we're discussing it. Brass, it's so easy now to jump on a plane and fly to a venue with my sails under my arm and charter a boat for an event. I reguarly do it with Optimists, have done it many times with Lasers, and could have done it at the Feva Worlds. Now if there was a universally accepted 2-hander I could have the opportunity to go to more venues. Japan, Indonesia, NZ etc, etc.

Originally posted by Assassin

 Something that developing sailing nations could progress opportunities into like we have seen in the Laser class in recent years. To create a worldwide network of product, build and supply to create an effective charter basis. 

Brass says
Yeah, like 'developing sailing nations' really need the old white world pushing a particular type of boat down their throats.

OK, so the development of 'vernacular' performance dinghies in the third world isn't quite thriving:  You could probably count the number of East African dinghy designers on less than one hand, but if you are contemplating a world-wide commercial chartering model, let the money men who stand to make profits out of it do the promotion:  don't expect ISAF to do it.
 
Agree, let the money men handle it, ISAF dont need to spend a dime, just promote, support and enjoy.

Originally posted by Assassin

 From an Optimist point of view, the front 10% are transitioning straight into 29ers/ 420 very effectively, the next 15% are going to 4.7 Lasers and the rest are dropping out of the sport.  

Brass says
I don't think I'm getting this correctly.

You say the top 10% of Optimist sailors are going to 2 handed dinghies 'very effectively'
  • I would have thought that at least half the top 10%, and quite possibly more, would be going up the Laser single hander route (or was that to be taken for granted?)

Yes agreed.

Brass says

  • Are you really saying that an Opti sailor can step straight into a 29er without any transition through a less powerful 2 hand, 3 sail boat?  Wow!  I would have thought it would be a very wet transition.  420 I can understand. The Feva I can understand:  at least there is a coloured sail that goes up and down and another sailor to talk to.  Is there maybe an 'invisible' transition through club class two handers?

Yes, I have many examples especially in Aus as they seem to be very strong in this class. Probably shouldn't put names on this forum as examples but rest assure, it blows me away how easily a 13-14 year old 45kg top Optimist sailor steers a 29er. They therefore bypass all the other 2-handers and are getting into high performance boats with fantastic racing brains and experience developed from the "universal" Optimist. Funny that.

Brass says,

You say that only the second rank of Opti sailors (10 to 25 percentile) is going to Laser 4.7

  • Again I would have thought that [probably a little more than] half of these would be going into two handed boats;
You say that the rest (presumably of Opti sailors in percentiles below 25th) are dropping out of the sport.
  • I would find this mildly surprising, if true.  Perhaps you are exaggerating.
  • Whatever, the RYA is probably doing better than any other National Authority, in terms of fostering non-competitive pathways:  instructing, RIB driving, Yachtmaster, and so on:  these pathways should be sucking the less successful out of the Squads stream, and keeping them engaged in the sport or pastime all the time.  Doubtless it could be done better, and in other places in the world it probably needs to be done much better. 

Totally agree.


Originally posted by Assassin

A fantastic 2-hander may assist retain more sailors.

Brass says,
The world is rife with 'fantastic 2 handers', some of them even '2 hullers' <g>.
 
Agree, I'm just putting out the notion that there could be many benefits to having an accepted International 2-hander. Would love to expand the conversation to a "2-huller" as well.
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Originally posted by Assassin

[QUOTE=Brass] [QUOTE=Assassin] What's wrong with having a supported, designated pathways 2-hander?

Brass says,
Because a 'pathway' boat is a boat selected by an elite development program, into which considerable money is invested, as likely to assist the goals of elite development:  the 'pathway' is the pathway to Olympic gold medals.
 
Seriously? Many "pathway" programs are geared towards Junior development, Youth development, Club development, not just towards Olympic gold medals. You cant tell me that the link that was posted on this thread a few days ago was a medal making crusade, surely it was a "sailing development/pathway program designed to maximise growth and opportunity.

Seriously.

Are you in AUS or the UK?

I certainly am  telling you that in this link

 http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/youthjunior/information/Pages/ClassRecognition.aspx

'Pathway Classes' is defined as 

 classes which the RYA Youth Steering Group believe most effectively develop the necessary skills, knowledge and experience sailors require to successfully progress into Youth and Olympic racing 

Yachting Australia uses the term 'pathways' somewhat more broadly, and I think has avoided defining 'Pathway Classes', leaving it up to MYA development squads to choose the classes they will focus on.

Brass says
There is no international elite development program.
 
Not talking about elite, just a Junior 2-handed boat.

Brass says
There is no suggestion that designating a boat as a 'pathways' boat is likely to help the sport as a whole, or even the class:  see the Olympic Curse thread.
 
Yes there is, I'm suggesting it and we're discussing it. Brass, it's so easy now to jump on a plane and fly to a venue with my sails under my arm and charter a boat for an event. I reguarly do it with Optimists, have done it many times with Lasers, and could have done it at the Feva Worlds. Now if there was a universally accepted 2-hander I could have the opportunity to go to more venues. Japan, Indonesia, NZ etc, etc.

OK, so let's lose the 'pathways' word.  You are talking about a single ISAF endorsed and supported class.

and you think that 

 ISAF dont need to spend a dime, just promote, support and enjoy.

  1. ISAF doesn't make decisions like that without enourmous conflict and difficulty, and huge animosity from the losers.
  2. Any activity by ISAF, particularly 'promoting' and 'supporting' costs money
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