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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: New Singlehanders: PYs
    Posted: 21 May 14 at 10:58am
Originally posted by Rupert

they might not even have a number, as they find out the abilities of the boat.

good point, that might be the best solution- just send back the ETs and wait for the system to do its thing... is that possible?

And also I fully understand Jim, although I guess you can appreciate my concerns, having been involved with a class that launched with naively two manufacture recommended PNs, only to have them changed dramatically into one which meant some folks could no longer officially sail their boat at their clubs.  

Then to have to campaign to get them back to two again through due process, I guess I'd rather think there was some form of control, or at least, direction, on the initial phase from you guys- even if, as Rupert points out, the solution is actually no number initially and work with elapsed times???  

Open to suggestions... 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 14 at 11:03am
Originally posted by Rupert

the early stage is up to the club, not the RYA, and the only way is to have boats on the water sailing.


Why? Why can't the RYA take ownership of the problem - they are surely better resourced than a club?

Incidentally, if there is a poll of 1000 people and 39% say they will vote Red and 40% say Blue, there is only a 57% chance that Blue will actually win the election.
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 14 at 11:21am
PYs are a difficult one especially where there is no data.

The 8.1 for instance when it first appeared at Hunts there was a lot of grumbling about and how generous it was.

But then I explained that you should look at who is sailing it (3 of the top Laser guys in the club). With them in it you would expect it to go well. When loaned out to others it did not go as well.

As it is the PY has moved a total of 9 points faster and the Laser several points slower. This has redressed the balance a little except in light airs when having a big sail an little wetted surface is a huge advantage.

I may comment more on how I feel the D-Zero compares after the weekend.
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Null View Drop Down
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 14 at 11:24am
All very well and good if your club uses that system, sadly mine does not.  i suspect we are in the majority, but happy to be corrected.  i agree with Peaky to some extent.  I am not after an advantageous PY, frankly I enjoyed sailing the boat so much it seems a shame to spoil a good sail with a race.  However i think that there should be some kind of formula, that helps give a *VERY* Rough start point.  Previously its been set by manufacturers which is a complete joke as the marketed PY just relays what ever message they are trying to deliver.

So perhaps ratifying a calculation, as the standard start point may help clubs and sailors of new classes out?  Just a thought
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 14 at 11:26am
Originally posted by Peaky

Why? Why can't the RYA take ownership of the problem 

It's only a problem if it is left to become one.  With no one stepping up to offer anything, we are at the will of the individual sailing committees at clubs or specific events to put their fingers in the air- most of whom would probably find the job difficult and frustrating.   

Sure, the 'shortcut' is to push that initial assessment back onto the likes of Mike, Rodney and Martin/Alex.... personally I think that's unfair and doesn't serve anyone well- experience tells us as much.  
After all they are not the custodians of the system, and I'm sure all of them just want a fair and impartial assessment as soon as possible, just like their customers.   They are not designing IRC yachts to beat a black box... just recreational racing dinghies to race each either.  
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 14 at 11:37am
Originally posted by Null

All very well and good if your club uses that system, sadly mine does not.  i suspect we are in the majority, but happy to be corrected.  i agree with Peaky to some extent.  I am not after an advantageous PY, frankly I enjoyed sailing the boat so much it seems a shame to spoil a good sail with a race.  However i think that there should be some kind of formula, that helps give a *VERY* Rough start point.  Previously its been set by manufacturers which is a complete joke as the marketed PY just relays what ever message they are trying to deliver.

So perhaps ratifying a calculation, as the standard start point may help clubs and sailors of new classes out?  Just a thought

Agreed, but in absence of that we usually have to rely on what the builder says until there is data to prove otherwise.
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 14 at 11:40am
Originally posted by jeffers

 

Agreed, but in absence of that we usually have to rely on what the builder says until there is data to prove otherwise.

Then it will always be questioned with negativity, and surrounded with accusations of prejudice - no matter which builder / boat we are talking about.   

What a sh*t way to progress the sport, especially for system that allegedly encourages diversity in the boats we choose.  Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 14 at 11:43am
The pragmatic answer is to race off scratch with whatever enters your race. Try and beat those Phantoms and Blazes over the water. I reckon the Aero 9 and Zero could easily race over the water without worrying at all about handicaps.
It won't be long before one gets a reputation if it is faster.
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Null View Drop Down
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 14 at 11:50am
Agree there Peaky, i only really care where i come on the water to be honest.  I always race the boat in front and behind me.  Regardless of class.

However, to me it makes sense to get some kind of system in place?  Take it away from the manufacturers and all the BS that is generated in new boat launches and put some science behind it.  Then use this as a base point for returns and local adjustment?  Seems simple?  Albeit im sure its not.  But it seems a much more organised way to introduce new classes then some marketing bod deciding the new class needs to be a PY bandit or the fastest thing on the start line (which soon turns out is neither)
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 14 at 11:54am
That's essentially Rupert's sentiments too.... and reading through the thread, we are all pretty much in universal agreement- the best solution is to get as much data to the RYA over the shortest possible time to generate the ENs, that hopefully become PNs with more returns in due course.

I guess it's just how we all handle the interim period that proves an interesting topic.

A question for Jim, if he doesn't mind, what rating would he suggest to Island Barn, given a new member without any past results, rolls up with an Aero 7, Aero 9 and D-Zero?  

(Assuming of course, all manufacturers have been very sensible and not offered any recommendation at all.)


Edited by kneewrecker - 21 May 14 at 11:56am
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