Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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List classes of boat for sale |
AC nationality rule |
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Thunder Road ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 24 Jun 10 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 372 |
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Times have changed and they won't be going back any time soon, both soccer and formula1 have tried to cap costs, it doesn't work, the rich teams just find away round it and always will. We live in a world that craves instant excitment and sailing just joined the club. The heavily funded teams will get the best sailors, designers, technicians and equipment and they will want to try out against the best. Any well funded team owner will want the best and worry about their nationality later, would it be fair on a world class sailor from a country with no AC representation never to be able to perform on the ultimate stage? |
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Finn GBR16 Thunder Road.
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Van Mentz ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 27 Aug 12 Location: West Wight Online Status: Offline Posts: 32 |
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Mike I think you are right but I am trying to focus on why I have been wry about Oracle sailing under the American flag with only one symbolic American on board.
In recent history the Americans tarnished the event by spending much time in the courtroom to ensure the cup stayed on their soil, many including me found this distasteful and we turned away from the whole circus for years. In fact the Americans have always done what they could to stack the odds against the challenger. In the first decades of the twentieth century challengers were required to cross the Atlantic on their own keels and therefore were handicapped against the American yachts they were pitted against. In addition at the start of this event you will remember Oracle was racing with a two point handicap because they had been caught cheating. One can therefore perhaps be forgiven for being cynical about the lack of American passports on Oracle. I am not sure the Formula One analogy is relevant. The flag a vessel sails under is a fundamental method of identification and for this reason has a more profound symbolism than that of a Union Jack on a drivers helmet (for example). If Oracle sailed under an Oracle flag there would be no beef but she didn't, she was promoted as American through and through. A nationality rule would clean the cup up and make it easier for new TV audiences to identify with a boat to back. If this means passports get modified so be it one cannot stop that but I believe the effort should be made. Myles |
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Ellison is on record as saying its all got too expensive, as are the Kiwi's. The final was bl***y fantastic, but the AC72 event before was far from that and not many teams got there at all, so its generally accepted that costs have got to be curtailed so I don't think taking the wing out of the equation is a bad suggestion. As for the nationalistic side, I bet the US commentators wished that they had at least one more US citizen on board to talk about!! If Ben is ever in the position to build a team for this event, I have no doubt that he will try to build the best team to win it, but what I am also sure about is that he will start with UK talent first and that is no bad thing.
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RS400atC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
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I agree. Also, I think in today's climate, it is good to be drawing in nations like the Emirates. But, to follow this idea to the conclusion, why shouldn't other 'US' teams be allowed to challenge?
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blaze720 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635 |
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All this nationalistic stuff is a bit unrealisitic and naive. The funders are totally multi-national in their orientation today and pushing a simply (single) national line to the exclusion of all else is contrary to their underlying commercial orientation. Was that also a Red Bull logo on Ainslie' helmet ? And did I see the Toyota name on the NZ boat ? They like Oracle do it today and shell out big time because they are multi-national entities.
So you want to allow a bit of design to come from 'elsewhere' in the future and maybe a couple of the crew as well ... What you are saying by doing so is that you do in fact appreciate the practical reality but still want to waddle around with a bit of a fig-leaf with 'your' residial national flag on the front of it ! This is about as realistic an argument as saying Ferrari would need to field at least one Italien driver and nudge nudge 'n' % of their design people are also Italien in F1 racing ... Ferrari and the other F1 teams are multi-national albeit with the odd reference to their respective 'fig leaves' - like it or not that how it all works today. If sailing at this level is going to step up a notch in overall sporting terms it is going to have to accept that things like this will inevitably change towards the truly international. Wave a flag if you like, of course - the defender and challengers are actually based around Yacht Clubs who have to be physically somewhere but don't ever forget that it is now all about big money. And why on earth restrict the potential earnings of exceptionally capable individuals, be they designers, builders and crew who hail from a country that has no 'local' challenger ? If the UK was to put a team together are you prepared to exclude other EU citizens who have a reciprocal right to earn their living anywhere in the EU just as we do possibly contrary to law ? Got a granny from the UK ? Or are you married to a local ? Prepared to change your nationality ? Fine - no problems ! You will do mate ! Sounds like some are prepared to start 'lawyer feeding' yet again .. .. but then I suppose that is an AC tradition anyway ;-) Anyway it is still the defenders who get to dominate the event and rules - want to chenge things chum ? ? Much easier if you win it first ! Mike L. |
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Noah ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 29 Dec 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 611 |
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AC has never been a contest between nations. It's background is very, very rich b******ds buying design, build and crew services from wherever, and representing a yacht club as either challenger or defender. I believe there was once a nationality rule, but the important thing to remember is that the holder makes the rules! (Even the Deed of Gift has been subject to lawyers IIRC).
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Nick
D-Zero 316 |
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Rupert ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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The AC ethos has always been "my boat is faster than your boat", and whilst the sailing team is part of that, it is very different to "my team is faster than your team". One designs would kill that - and why would a billionaire agree to limiting any edge he can buy?
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Wel, my logic is that the wings and there development were the single most expensive part of boat, so if you standardise that, then you bring down cost. The most expensive part of the campaigns were the size of the teams, so again a restriction in numbers would limit the costs. By allowing freedom elsewhere you keep the interest levels and the new development that is a feature of such events. It brings an extra fission of excitement. Once you go complete one design, part of the mystique is lost. You might as well stick them in tP 52's
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GarethT ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 21 Apr 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 714 |
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Now if the 50ft foiling cats were one design, then we'd have some exciting close racing.
Obviously the trade off is in new technical developments.
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It's a difficult one as we all might want such a rule, but it's a money sport and so rules will be bent unless you put something in like birth nationality. Rugby rules are too slack, but where is the middle ground?
Team nz was mostly kiwi which I think was a good thing and I think we all feel for them as they pioneered foiling and had won the cup twice in the past 10 days until the timers and weather said otherwise. I agree with Mark that the psychology of having a 'national' team and the support it gives is good for the sport and perhaps that means that it can't become just a cup bought by massive corporates. How about Location chosen by defender 50% of crew country nationals either by birth or 15 years residency Skipper is part of the 50% and has to be a national of the country For the next cup 50ft foiling multihulls with a one design single manufacturer wing. Foils, hulls and anything bar the wing at each teams discretion and design. ( a bit like the old DFV Cosworth days in F1 where the power sources were the same, but the rest was up to the team) Perhaps even add an overall limit to team numbers. One thing is certain, foils are here to stay. |
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