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RS400atC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30 Apr 13 at 12:27am
$2k oz is about £600?
I think you can ship a container across an ocean for about £2k, and that is a lot of lasers.
To have one trucked anywhere is some hundreds of pounds a day.
But these events are a lot of money in hotels for officials etc, same as anything at world level.
There is usually sponsorship too.
But that just creates a need for someone on £50k a year to liaise with sponsors.

The sailing can get lost in the noise...
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 13 at 11:23pm
McLaren could probably raise the cash easily enough, OK. But there are other Laser builders who don't appear to have such backing, and down here in Oz when I was in the industry cash flow was a significant problem; for example IIRC many people complained that Beneteau obtained their market domination because of the credit their government backing allowed them to extend to dealers. Local builders, by contrast, had to run overdrafts and often had major cash flow issues as a result.

IIRC shipping a container load of Tasars interstate costs something like $2k/boat. Laser could get a better deal but at the last worlds down here they had to ship boats across the Tasman, with all that means in customs costs etc, and therefore the $1800 (approx) each boat earned in charter fees across the two regattas does not seem to be enough to have created a profit.

Basically I'm just saying that no one has really produced evidence to show that the Laser pricing (down here at least) is such a profiteer's dream.
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 13 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by blueboy

Originally posted by Chris 249

A query to those with business finance backgrounds - how easily could a company the size of a Laser builder (not just PSE which is probably the biggest, but the others as well) find the funding to produce the worlds fleets? If they build 100 new boats then even allowing for a 50% markup they've had to find $350,000 AUS.


I know a number of people who could raise $350K from banks on a handshake. You'd be surprised. It helps, in the UK anyway, if you went to the "right" school. Not that I'm bitter.

with a global business empire including the Maclaren buggy market, I'd be surprised if the group would need to go to a bank to raise 350AUS$
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SoggyBadger View Drop Down
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Posts: 552 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SoggyBadger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 13 at 1:15pm
Economy of scale only applies in sailmaking to the ability to bulk buy materials and maybe a slightly improved cloth usage. In terms of cutting and assembly it makes no real difference.
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blueboy View Drop Down
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Posts: 512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 13 at 1:01pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

A query to those with business finance backgrounds - how easily could a company the size of a Laser builder (not just PSE which is probably the biggest, but the others as well) find the funding to produce the worlds fleets? If they build 100 new boats then even allowing for a 50% markup they've had to find $350,000 AUS.


I know a number of people who could raise $350K from banks on a handshake. You'd be surprised. It helps, in the UK anyway, if you went to the "right" school. Not that I'm bitter.
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Posts: 64 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Caveman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 13 at 12:46pm
I can see that having one supplier can work. It has the benefit of scale and the price should be very reasonable. BUT for that to work effectively, class members must be able to call for the ending of the supply contract should they become unhappy with prices, availability of supply, quality or service. 

Agree with pondmonkey. My results with a laminate sail are much the same as with my cheaper and older dacron sail. Multiple suppliers may mean that prices are a little bit higher but the competition helps promote quality and keeps prices reasonable. At our club, we found that a bulk order for sails (say five or more sets) secured a very substantial discount from a top sailmaker's normal prices. Just as important, companies like P&B, HD, Speed and many other sail lofts / chandlers do provide great service and after sales support.      
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 13 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by Rupert



Not getting at Mirrors, just at the idea that competition reduces price.

but it reduces prices for those who want it and are prepared to compromise.

I'm sure I could get a much cheaper sail - in dacron, by sourcing from a smaller loft.  It might not be what the guys at the front of the national fleet are using (although they tend to get there top of the range unit 'very cheap' too  Wink), but it would be cheaper and really, honestly, would it affect my back of the pack performance that much?
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 13 at 12:05pm
Trident are obviously keeping prices down, so good guys, or know that their main competitor is the Feva, not other Mirror sail makers.

However, I'm not trying to say that the extra cost of the sails where there is open sailmaking is a rip off - quite the opposite might be true, with the cost of continuous development to stay ahead of the rest of the fleet, the reduced economies of scale, the increased labour costs where small quantities are make in the UK rather than batches of identical sails in the far east. Currently, the Laser appears to have the worst of both worlds - no sailmaker choice and yet no way of the CA making a direct deal with a sailmaker on behalf of the members.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posts: 552 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SoggyBadger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 13 at 10:18am
Originally posted by Rupert

P&B Mirror main and jib £679 (which won the 2012 nats)

Firefly main and jib £558.67

Not getting at Mirrors, just at the idea that competition reduces price.


Well Trident won 11 out of the last 12 Mirror nats so they can't be that tatty... And also remember who it was that won last year. Maybe you should also factor in that P&B build their sails in this country (thus providing employment and keeping your taxes down) whereas Hyde sails are made in the Far East (Cebu, Philippines).
Best wishes from deep in the woods

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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 13 at 8:39am
P&B Mirror main and jib £679 (which won the 2012 nats)

Firefly main and jib £558.67

Not getting at Mirrors, just at the idea that competition reduces price.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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