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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 Nov 14 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by Blue One

Originally posted by kneewrecker

It amuses me that you think the two are not directly connected.... if everyone switches rigs, then really, there is only need for one central EN, with local adjustment if the club deem it appropriate.  
Not that will happen- people tend gravitate towards one rig in the long term, thus creating a statistical anomaly if a small minority continue to switch about.  


As I said, it's about rig swapping and how CLUBS do returns not the system itself. Glad you find it amusing. Your posts always have the same effect on me. Well, I shake my head and then burst out laughing .

Logically, the various systems employed by the clubs to police the fun vs stringent class rules dichotomy and the overall PY system are co-dependent.  One does not work without the other.  

Where we do agree is not to overly worry about it too much- you politely reference custard creams, I just call it spreadsheet racing*, but the essence is very much the same.  

It's as good a system as any for taking grossly different boats and adding a competitive element to toddling about in them.  

(* you will see a softened lexicon - even acknowledging it as racing, rather than 'spreadsheet sailing'; you see Duncan, you can positively influence me  LOL)


Edited by kneewrecker - 07 Nov 14 at 1:09pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6660 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 14 at 1:29pm
While RS are selling the boat as three separate it would seem strange to say they should be treated as one class. If the default purchase option was one boat and three rigs that would be another matter.

If my club considered that a competitor is swapping between rigs for competitive advantage then the solution i'd suggest would be to have a new entry in our saiwave ratings file, RS Aero multiple rig, and knock 10 or 15 points off the big rig handicap.

I think we'd want to discourage anything that gave the impression you needed multiple boats or rigs to win a series.

Edited by JimC - 07 Nov 14 at 1:34pm
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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 14 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by bernie

I don't see the logic in having 3 different PYs for the different rigs and calling it 3 different classes.  It would be like changing the PY of a boat if it puts a reef in.  So are you then going to have multiple PYs for Wayfarers, RS600s, etc?

And then what about 12ft and 18ft skiffs?

Their PYs (and those of yachts) are calculated based in them using the right rig and sail combination for the conditions (in the same way as you would reef an RS600 or Wayfarer), so surely the RS Aero PY should be calculated based on the boat having all 3 rigs and using the right one for the conditions.


As has been said on here many times that would make it a lightweights only boat. Given that heavyweights have comparatively very little choice, this would limit the market appeal of the boat.

The Laser has already demonstrated that 3 separate classes works very well and can be easily managed by Clubs.
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 14 at 1:41pm
Exactly RS have been super clear from the start that its 3 boats and 3 different classes.  Albeit under one class umbrella.  I think rif swapping should not be encouraged as in my opinion it muddies the water.  Nothing to stop someone doing it, but I think I would want it to count as a different boat in the series and as such score seperately.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 14 at 1:46pm
James, I honestly think you would get more enjoyment if you did actually care about your series result. Not for every series in the club year, but pick one and make it an ambition to 'podium'. That way, races are not just cruising in company with a clock ticking in the background, they are part of a bigger goal. If you just treat each race as a one off with no meaning, you have nothing to win for, you will put off that one sail until conditions are perfect and you will drift away from sailboat racing... Sound familiar?

Once you aim to get a series result, you will make the effort to get to the club even if it is only a 4kt forecast or pissing with rain. And you will try to do well, because it is no longer a meaningless drift. And once that competitive element comes back, the enjoyment will follow because you will see progress.
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 14 at 1:57pm
maybe so Peaky- however busy lives and small kids would make that a pipe dream to sail every weekend, so picking, choosing and negotiating based on forecasts becomes essential.  

I'm not moaning, it's my own choice....

Wednesday nights are a little easier to commit to, but even then the series opportunity is blown out by being out of the country for at least 4 weeks of the evening series, coupled with work commitments and those days when the trees aren't moving anyway, that means I'm only likely to be able to get to half at best- not enough to 'podium' and even a top 10 would be hollow, as it would ultimately come down to scoring by attrition and reducing DNCs on other similarly time poor individuals.

The point is, when I do show up, if I have the option to increase or decrease sail to increase the fun factor, then I will use it.  Whether a club scores that result individually, or carries it through against the sailor, not the boat, is really is of very little consequence to me, but I guess it could, depending on the club protocols, have some very insignificant influence to the negative on the PY release.


Edited by kneewrecker - 07 Nov 14 at 2:02pm
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 14 at 2:06pm
As an aside, there's a wonderful article by John Claridge on the FP celebrating the life and contribution of Tony Hibbert.  

He's credited for bringing together various classes together under the International Moth banner.  What amazing thinking, and diplomacy, I can't believe dinghy sailors were anything but what they are today- head in the sand, thinking 'in class', not category.


Edited by kneewrecker - 07 Nov 14 at 2:06pm
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 14 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by kneewrecker

Whether a club scores that result individually, or carries it through against the sailor, not the boat, is really is of very little consequence to me.


I'm in pretty much the same position for different reasons, and have a large choice of boats, but once I'm on the water I find the ones I enjoy most are where I have to concentrate hard to beat other boats on the water - easier when they are faster boats; when slower, I find I just get frustrated that I can't escape, and it all goes horribly wrong. The handicap result is simply a way of measuring how well I did compared to how I thought I should have done.
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 14 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by Rupert

The handicap result is simply a way of measuring how well I did compared to how I thought I should have done.

that's a good way of viewing it, a benchmark rather than a 'race result'-  thanks Rupert  Thumbs Up
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 14 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by kneewrecker

As an aside, there's a wonderful article by John Claridge on the FP celebrating the life and contribution of Tony Hibbert.

Saw that article and thought of your 'box rule idea', funnily enough.  Shows it can work, but not to produce a 'boat for everyman".
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