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jeffers View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by zeon

If I remember correctly the first great lakes numbers for the aero/zero weren't that far away from the current rya numbers. Am sure someone ( Jim c/Paul etc ) will correct me if I am wrong. :)

D-Zero sailed off 1015 the first year we competed in the SJ series. RYA number came 1040 as the first EN, GL changed to 1031. Both are not 1033.

As has been said before, the GL PYs tend to be harsh for a new class so they don't get a perceived advantage.

This isn't a PY thread though lets leave this branch here....
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by Keith_Callaghan

"but to suggest that someone pulls the strings at Sailjuice etc simply to thwart new entrants is just plain misguided and unhelpful".
I agree with Cirrus here. Simon Lovesey has bent over backwards to encourage participation of the H2s in the Sailjuice series. And I can understand the disadvantageous handicapping (the H2 was given 1015) - there is minimal quantitative performance data for the H2 yet, and all competitors would understandably be peeved off if such a boat won on a 'dodgy' handicap. Remember 'Punk'?

The Punk did have one D Holman sailing it though. I understand he was in contention for an Olympic place at one point until one B Ainslie beat him to it. Certainly when Dan sailed the D-Zero nats no one could get anywhere near him (aside from in the light flukey stuff when it was a lottery).
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Posts: 997 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by Keith_Callaghan

"but to suggest that someone pulls the strings at Sailjuice etc simply to thwart new entrants is just plain misguided and unhelpful".
I agree with Cirrus here. Simon Lovesey has bent over backwards to encourage participation of the H2s in the Sailjuice series. And I can understand the disadvantageous handicapping (the H2 was given 1015) - there is minimal quantitative performance data for the H2 yet, and all competitors would understandably be peeved off if such a boat won on a 'dodgy' handicap. Remember 'Punk'?


What did punk win apart from some club races?
1050 calculated by a rigorous and transparent method and proposed publically to those interested. En for zero in first year 1045 i.e. Half a percent delta from calculated.
Now it's what 1035 and current emphatic Nat champ not getting near chocs in sailjiice on that in any weather.
There is a difference between doing something rigorous and proposing it, only to get speeding tickets in the form of discretional py hits at sailjuice and any other locally adjusted series based on the fact that a multi class national champion is, shock horror, winning a handicap race in a boat that suits conditions, vs pulling a number out of ones arse and complaining that it's harsh when mid fleet club guys are only getting mid fleet results in handicap events.
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 12:58pm
The punk won the forumites open. Fastest boat in the world. End of story
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 1:00pm
Guesswho. You must understand that the PY discussion on every thread is the y&y equivalent of Godwin's law
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 1:00pm
The D Zero tale exactly highlights my point, no way was it 1015 by any measure, no more than the H2 is 1015, I'd love to go up to oxford tomorrow and give it a go, but why participate in an event that is already stacked against you, what possible reason could make you travel all that way, either in your own boat or in someone elses when the stats are so biased. It is exactly why some organisation or body needs to get a grip of all this.

Handicaps need to be calculated scientifically by machine and maths, not bumbling bent buffers or axe grinding cottage industry spoilers and the Laser should be static for them to pivot about, something needs to anchor the whole charade.
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Posts: 80 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Keith_Callaghan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by iGRF



Handicaps need to be calculated scientifically by machine and maths, not bumbling bent buffers or axe grinding cottage industry spoilers and the Laser should be static for them to pivot about, something needs to anchor the whole charade.

Fortunately Graeme (for us designers at least) the science of aero-hydrodynamics has not yet reached the stage where a planing vessel's performance can be accurately predicted. I understand your antipathy towards handicap racing, but I believe that those involved in the handicapping are making the best of a difficult job and it suits many people to sail their chosen weapon in a handicap fleet.

Edited by Keith_Callaghan - 17 Feb 17 at 1:45pm
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zeon View Drop Down
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Posts: 316 		Post Options Post Options   Quote zeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by iGRF

The D Zero tale exactly highlights my point, no way was it 1015 by any measure, no more than the H2 is 1015, I'd love to go up to oxford tomorrow and give it a go, but why participate in an event that is already stacked against you, what possible reason could make you travel all that way, either in your own boat or in someone elses when the stats are so biased. It is exactly why some organisation or body needs to get a grip of all this.

Handicaps need to be calculated scientifically by machine and maths, not bumbling bent buffers or axe grinding cottage industry spoilers and the Laser should be static for them to pivot about, something needs to anchor the whole charade.
What rubbish and even if it wasn't can you please remember the builder and designer are trying to get people to try their new boat and your comments are not helping. As a business man your self, how would you feel if someone did that to your products.
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 1:34pm
I can't imagine an IRC for dinghies being in anyway more popular with punters, especially if you have to divulge personal statistics into the matrix like a Weight Watchers meeting.

FWIW - at least the PN system it's actually based on statistical sampling, not some black box formula which will forever stink of collusion and conspiracy amongst the outer-eschelons of its stakeholders.

It also makes 100% sense for a local organisation/ independent race office to take an EN and harshen-it-up a bit to prevent mass annoyance of a new bandit cleaning up.  At least the GL system is opening it up to these classes - it wasn't so long ago I didn't buy a boat simply because it meant there wasn't a chance of attending one of these events as it wouldn't have been accepted.

Given this is all hypothetical, the reverse could equally be feasible.... All of us pro-innovation and new classes types could form our own winter series, one which penalises duffer classes and annihilates anything even vaguely bareing this season's latest lip gloss.... we could start with making a real example of that new Ovington OK... disgraceful behaviour to take an old shed like that and try and make it look appealing.  I know one guy in the south west who actually says he likes it.... he's probably not even 40 yet FFS!  

But as Cirrus explains- most people are fairly indifferent to the whole PY thing.  A lot of sailors I know don't even really understand the basic mathematic principles in play with it... I certainly didn't for a long time.  All this pivoting around 1000 or making the Laser the 'benchmark' talk.... that's a completely different system folks, and sure as hell wouldn't stand up to the scrutiny the PYAG actually give to their data before making national recommendations.  

But whatever.... If handicap racing is so sh1te, or so rigged against oneself, there is a very simple solution.... find something else to do instead, after all, what are you really missing out on?  


Edited by turnturtle - 17 Feb 17 at 1:38pm
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by zeon

Originally posted by iGRF

The D Zero tale exactly highlights my point, no way was it 1015 by any measure, no more than the H2 is 1015, I'd love to go up to oxford tomorrow and give it a go, but why participate in an event that is already stacked against you, what possible reason could make you travel all that way, either in your own boat or in someone elses when the stats are so biased. It is exactly why some organisation or body needs to get a grip of all this.

Handicaps need to be calculated scientifically by machine and maths, not bumbling bent buffers or axe grinding cottage industry spoilers and the Laser should be static for them to pivot about, something needs to anchor the whole charade.
What rubbish and even if it wasn't can you please remember the builder and designer are trying to get people to try their new boat and your comments are not helping. As a business man your self, how would you feel if someone did that to your products.


GRF's products are routinely slated across the internet, usually by a user account with the same IP address as his office..... I guess at least people are talking about them though  Wink
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