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Andymac View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 Nov 11 at 8:55am
Originally posted by RS400atC

I'm suggesting it was obvious from the word go that average points could have been very much worse than third.
It's not unknown for masts to break, particularly at Hayling. Or an unrelated incident could have happened, that's why we have discards. To effectively lose your discard is not redress, it does not put you in the position you would have been in had the error not been made. Everybody else has the safety net of one bad race. Who would want all races to count with no discards? That's a game changer.
 
I think we, Jim and many others, all agree on that count.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 11 at 8:57am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Dougal


[Not so sure about the exploiting the system comment - it calls in to question the legitimacy of sailing anyone down the fleet.  If they have sailed to the rules, then good luck to them. 

No, its entirely different. If in normal circumstances you sail someone down the fleet both parties get one bad result each. In this case one party gets one bad result, the other party gets two bad results, purely due to a perversion of the scoring system. The reason why the RRS include rule 2 is that its impossible for every possible unsporting activity to be detailed in the rules.


Sounds like you have just worked out have an average is calculated and the impact on an average of an outling figure ... Geek

This event was won on the water by a team that sailed well and within the rules ...

If the award of average points was unacceptable the appeal should have been lodged at that point.

You can't wind the clock back as that desicion will have changed peoples tactics from that point onwards; not just in the last race.
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 11 at 9:12am
Originally posted by Paramedic

The simple solution i think is to set a short time limit on appeals. If you walk out of a redress hearing happy with the decision, i don't see why you should be able to change your mind in the light of subsequant events. If the time limit for an appeal is two hours after the end of the hearing (Or maybe one hour before the start of the next race) the competitor has time to think about the redress given and work out any permutations. If they are then unhappy fill in the appeal form and off we go.
 
I would guess average points were seen at the time as being fairest and most equitable to everyone since 3rd and below would already have been awarded. Human nature suggests that GC walked out of the hearing seeing a first where there would otherwise have been a third and left it at that (I probably would have done too). You can't blame Taxi for then going out and doing the only thing he could do to win , and doing it brilliantly by all accounts.
 
 
 
I'm not aware that the affected boat can 'negotiate' the redress given. If indeed they did(?) and walked out in full acceptance of the redress given then of course it should then be binding. There is a suggestion in a couple of posts that GC argued for a 1st place to be awarded which I would find equally reprehensible to the actual redress given.
 
There is of course another possible outcome on appeal, which is the RYA can question the reliability of whatever system was in use for spotting OCS boats, consider the other BFD boats that returned to the beach without question and the other mistaken identity boat(s) which were not called and declare the whole race invalid. That could have repurcussions all the way through the fleet!
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 11 at 9:29am
Originally posted by seamonkey

You can't wind the clock back as that desicion will have changed peoples tactics from that point onwards; not just in the last race.
 
It should also be acknowledged that a right to appeal is within the rules as well. If someone seeks to exploit a situation and modify their strategy based on something that may later be rescinded then that is a risk that they must accept.
 
 
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Posts: 978 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 11 at 10:21am
"The decision taken by the race committee in the protest room had Carveth stumped for his win for had he been reinstated he would have kept his third position which would have kept him in the points to win. Despite this he can be quoted as saying, “I certainly enjoyed sailing the Merlin Rocket for the first time at a championships, especially the long traditional style of racing, the winner did what he had to do to win, but it’s not necessarily the way I would’ve done it."

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=159375

A fair statement following the racing agreed, but to take it to appeal, now? Oh do f**k off, go back next year and try harder...

yet another example of some the (quite deserved) stereotyping that the rest of the sailing community associate with whinghy sailing.

Edited by rogue - 10 Nov 11 at 10:21am
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Sheetpuller View Drop Down
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Posts: 114 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sheetpuller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 11 at 10:40am
How can HISC be seen to get it right?
They ran a Nationals race where there was doubt whether a boat was over the line.
The organisation then compounded the situation by issuing a form of redress which created the match race scenario on the last day.
As I see it, the actions of the race and protest committees, and those who decided how they were resourced, are responsible for creating this situation.
 
I don't hold any brief for HISC, I think it's the most unwelcoming club I've ever visited, but there really isn't any point in laying blame with the RO or his team.  As we all know, the 'line' doesn't exist in any visible form; it's just the shortest distance between part of a boat which is moving around on the water and a buoy or another boat which is also moving around, in all probability to a different cadence.  Add to this the masking effect of one boat clearly across the line on others to leeward of it and there is always going to be some dispute as to whether a particular boat transgressed or not.  So it is vital that a boat is able to challenge the RO's decision to black-flag without calling into question his competence in any way. 
 
Nor is there any validity in criticising Taxi for sailing Geoff down the fleet.  Like all the front runners he was there to win, and to achieve that you deal with the situation as it is, not as it should be in a perfect world.  It's also unfair to effectively devalue his achievement of winning a major championship when he has done so by playing within the rules as laid down. The only 'error' I can find in the whole senario is the redress awarded by the PC.  I have heard a whisper that there may have been an additional factor in their deliberation which led them to allow the protest but to make the redress as minimal as they could, but it's hearsay and for obvious reasons I'm not saying anything more on the subject; but I do wonder if that additional factor will be submitted to the RYA along with the rest of the meeting record.

 


Edited by Sheetpuller - 10 Nov 11 at 10:41am
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 11 at 10:42am
Nonsense. I don't think I've ever seen a clearer example of something that should be appealed and I'm very glad he had the guts to do it.

This event has highlighted what in my opinion is a serious flaw in the recommended scoring system in Appendix A, and an appeal is exactly the way the system is supposed to work. A single protest committee decision means nothing. An appeal decision can end up in the case book and improve the rules for everyone in the future.

I thought not necessarily the way I would have done it was a lovely piece of phrasing, and I don't find it hard to read within the lines.
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2547 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 11 at 10:54am
Originally posted by JimC


I thought not necessarily the way I would have done it was a lovely piece of phrasing, and I don't find it hard to read within the lines.


yeah right ... as if ... had the situation been reversed GC would have done EXACTLY the same thing.

Anyone with a winning killer instict would have done that; we have seen loads of examples of last race match racing and this case is no different.
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 11 at 10:59am
Originally posted by Sheetpuller

 
Nor is there any validity in criticising Taxi for sailing Geoff down the fleet.  Like all the front runners he was there to win, and to achieve that you deal with the situation as it is, not as it should be in a perfect world.  It's also unfair to effectively devalue his achievement of winning a major championship when he has done so by playing within the rules as laid down. 
 
 
Equally, it is also unfair of people to criticise Geoff for going to appeal, who is also 'playing within the rules as laid down'.
I would perhaps reserve comment on who actually 'won' the major championship until the appeal has been dealt with.
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Sheetpuller View Drop Down
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Posts: 114 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sheetpuller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 11 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by Andymac

Originally posted by Sheetpuller

 
Nor is there any validity in criticising Taxi for sailing Geoff down the fleet.  Like all the front runners he was there to win, and to achieve that you deal with the situation as it is, not as it should be in a perfect world.  It's also unfair to effectively devalue his achievement of winning a major championship when he has done so by playing within the rules as laid down. 
 
 
Equally, it is also unfair of people to criticise Geoff for going to appeal, who is also 'playing within the rules as laid down'.
I would perhaps reserve comment on who actually 'won' the major championship until the appeal has been dealt with.
 
I agree completely.  If Geoff feels the PO decision was wrong (and I would agree with that) he is not only entitled to appeal but in a very real sense has a duty to do so.
 
Notwithstanding that, there can be no argument as to who won the championship; that is, unless someone on this forum has a crystal ball which can show the progress of the championship from the point of the black flag incident on.  Unfortunately the batteries in mine are flat...
 
Taxi won the championship - that is fact.  All the rest is merely playing 'what if'.
 
 
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