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    Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 9:12pm
Thanks for the explanation Andy. In that case their really doesn't seem to be any logic to the decision notbto award the finishing position.
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 10:02pm
Originally posted by Peaky

Thanks for the explanation Andy. In that case their really doesn't seem to be any logic to the decision notbto award the finishing position.
 
Quite, it is difficult to understand in this situation why the PC awarded 'average points' redress when there was a legitimate finish position of 3rd recorded. It would have been entirely different if the boat had retired from the race.
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by seamonkey

Originally posted by JimC


... I blame the people who exploited a defect in the scoring system to get a win they couldn't get on the water.


What .... Angry

How can you critisise the winning team for sailing within the rules to win the championships ON THE WATER ? They were not party to any of these protests ...

This situation was not of their making they just responded to the situation that developed.

Had the protest comittee made a different decision they may have made other strategic choices that may have equally lead to victory ... or not. We will never know.

I can't see how this can be reversed because the winning team will of course say they would have done things differently had the situation been different.
 
Whilst I can understand your sentiments Jim, I can only agree with others that the perceived 'aggressor' sailed entirely within the rules and shouldn't be 'blamed' for the situation presented.
 
Having said that, the rules ALSO allow an avenue for appeal through the national body by the disadvantaged boat. Anyone willing to exploit a given situation which favours them, would I'm sure be equally prepared to accept the outcome if it was subsequently removed.
 
 
 
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 10:22pm
Originally posted by Dougal


[Not so sure about the exploiting the system comment - it calls in to question the legitimacy of sailing anyone down the fleet.  If they have sailed to the rules, then good luck to them. 

No, its entirely different. If in normal circumstances you sail someone down the fleet both parties get one bad result each. In this case one party gets one bad result, the other party gets two bad results, purely due to a perversion of the scoring system. The reason why the RRS include rule 2 is that its impossible for every possible unsporting activity to be detailed in the rules.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 10:23pm
Originally posted by Andymac

Originally posted by Peaky

Thanks for the explanation Andy. In that case their really doesn't seem to be any logic to the decision notbto award the finishing position.
 
Quite, it is difficult to understand in this situation why the PC awarded 'average points' redress when there was a legitimate finish position of 3rd recorded. It would have been entirely different if the boat had retired from the race.


On the day of the race for which redress was given, average points were better than 3rd. Was there more to the redress claim than wanting the finishing position re-instated, or was it simply that the PC had given 3rd to someone else and did not want to affect that? Is scoring in the series detached from 3rd place in the daily cup?

It would be nice if these things were a little more open, and a lot more quickly dealt with.
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 11:46pm
Originally posted by RS400atC


On the day of the race for which redress was given, average points were better than 3rd. Was there more to the redress claim than wanting the finishing position re-instated, or was it simply that the PC had given 3rd to someone else and did not want to affect that? Is scoring in the series detached from 3rd place in the daily cup?

It would be nice if these things were a little more open, and a lot more quickly dealt with.
 
The whole point of redress is to make amends for the RC's mistake and put the boat affected back in a position had the mistake not been made. Assuming the 3rd place in the race was achieved without any other adverse action from the RC then there is no reason to make it better (by awarding average points based on races sailed to date [1st & 1st = 1st]), or potentially worse by awarding average points based on a whole series yet to be sailed including the discard, and we know how that turned out!
Are you suggesting in your posts that there could have been a hidden agenda?
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 11 at 12:13am
I'm suggesting it was obvious from the word go that average points could have been very much worse than third.
It's not unknown for masts to break, particularly at Hayling. Or an unrelated incident could have happened, that's why we have discards. To effectively lose your discard is not redress, it does not put you in the position you would have been in had the error not been made. Everybody else has the safety net of one bad race. Who would want all races to count with no discards? That's a game changer.
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Posts: 929 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 11 at 7:27am
The simple solution i think is to set a short time limit on appeals. If you walk out of a redress hearing happy with the decision, i don't see why you should be able to change your mind in the light of subsequant events. If the time limit for an appeal is two hours after the end of the hearing (Or maybe one hour before the start of the next race) the competitor has time to think about the redress given and work out any permutations. If they are then unhappy fill in the appeal form and off we go.
 
I would guess average points were seen at the time as being fairest and most equitable to everyone since 3rd and below would already have been awarded. Human nature suggests that GC walked out of the hearing seeing a first where there would otherwise have been a third and left it at that (I probably would have done too). You can't blame Taxi for then going out and doing the only thing he could do to win , and doing it brilliantly by all accounts.
 
The most ironic thing of all - if they had taken the BFD on the chin they would have won the champs.


Edited by Paramedic - 10 Nov 11 at 7:31am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 11 at 7:38am

The most ironic thing of all - if they had taken the BFD on the chin they would have won the champs.

How? Surely the BFD is more points than the average points they eventually got?
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 11 at 8:51am
Originally posted by Peaky


The most ironic thing of all - if they had taken the BFD on the chin they would have won the champs.

How? Surely the BFD is more points than the average points they eventually got?
 
Ditto. It would have came down to the same - a match race in the final race except that Andy Davis wouldn't have needed to sail Geoff quite so far down the fleet.
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