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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 Nov 12 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by tgruitt

Originally posted by pondmonkey

Originally posted by tgruitt



But how many people in the 400 class actually voted??

the same number who held a strong enough opinion, one way or tother... that's how voting works.



But if it's 5 for and 3 against then it makes a total farce of the voting don't you think? It isn't a true representation of the class' views.

not really- it's simple democracy on a majority call.  Any more complex representational voting structures and you're taking the 'bullsh1t quotient' well beyond the scope of an amateur sailing class association imho.

If the 'losing side' feel so strongly, then there's absolutely nothing stoping them forming a splinter class, based on a box rule that grandfathers their dislodged group.  It can work for either technology enhancement, or prohibiting change, depending on who loses.  Sure, it's not friendly or great for any class when it happens (IC/AC etc) but it does at least mean like-minded people can run a class with fellow like minded people.

Of course, the truth is that once the fuss dies down most people will look at the bigger picture and accept that it really either has a) little actual impact on them or b) worth every compromise to maintain the exceptional class racing qualities the 400 has delivered over the past what, 20 years or so.       


Edited by pondmonkey - 05 Nov 12 at 4:50pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 12 at 4:27pm
In my experience turnouts in class rule votes are always abysmal, no matter how much effort the CA officers put into trying to get people to vote.
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 12 at 4:27pm
The number of people voting was 49.
The problem is that a large number of rs400 owners don't join the CA.
I don't know if anyone joined just to vote.
I don't think the low number of votes really indicates apathy, I remember several people undecided and a few thinking it made no difference, it was pure cosmetics, like changing the colour schemes which LDC wouldn't call a vote on.
The more radical proposals like a different shape main were killed off without ever being voted on.
I'd vote for some less extreme weather for south coast opens next year.
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ex laser View Drop Down
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Posts: 725 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ex laser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 12 at 2:54am
Originally posted by pondmonkey

did 'er indoors buy you that trick bike Duncan?


yip. Smile bike on order, should get it in a couple of weeks!!

just been and got another new toy. new double trailer.

now we can fall out at open meetings and not just at the club! Wink


Edited by ex laser - 06 Nov 12 at 1:41pm
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Jamesd View Drop Down
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Posts: 377 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jamesd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 12 at 9:08am
Originally posted by RS400atC

 I remember several people undecided and a few thinking it made no difference, it was pure cosmetics, like changing the colour schemes which LDC wouldn't call a vote on.
The more radical proposals like a different shape main were killed off without ever being voted on.

It was 95pc cosmetic, in my opinion the only thing that really made any noticeable difference was the jib and it was merely the shape regarding a different setup, in an amateur fleet these differences in sail cut make such minimal difference to speed/end results. I'd still feel confident and competitive with a suit of white sails up 

The square top main was pretty extreme, it looked good and the performance increase was extreme. Planing upwind is something than isnt really achieved in a 400 unless its 18+ knots, but the square top did make it happen in alot less. The larger kite was nice as well. 
I think for an RS401 these changes would have been great but it was a step to far to put it onto a fleet of 1000 boats, 90pc of which sail only at club level. 

The one thing that gets me, is why did the kite never get changed to a twin patch? surely that was one of the easier mods and most effective
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 12 at 9:31am
Originally posted by Jamesd

 

The square top main was pretty extreme, it looked good and the performance increase was extreme. Planing upwind is something than isnt really achieved in a 400 unless its 18+ knots, but the square top did make it happen in alot less. The larger kite was nice as well. 

I could imagine that would have been a real dilemma: head says no; heart says sod it!
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Hornet View Drop Down
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Posts: 20 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Hornet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 12 at 7:43pm
Regarding the sail changes, if there is minimal difference between the old and new how is it that at every open i have attended the top of the fleet are using a combi of new Jib and Old Main? By the way no more than 20 on average so that really worked in improving numbers didnt it? 
As for the carbon pole it will never work until they modify the aperture on the hull you only have to look at ally poles to see where it is point loading! 
As for the sails lasting as long if you believe that you belong in never never land with the fairies!
 The boom is better regarding the cracking but a downgrade as far as the clew track why oh why didnt they decide to keep it! oh yeah that would be proffit margin! 
I think if the manufacturer had spent the money resolving longstanding issues such as side deck cracking people would have been happier
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 12 at 10:12pm
Originally posted by Hornet

Regarding the sail changes, if there is minimal difference between the old and new how is it that at every open i have attended the top of the fleet are using a combi of new Jib and Old Main? By the way no more than 20 on average so that really worked in improving numbers didnt it? 
As for the carbon pole it will never work until they modify the aperture on the hull you only have to look at ally poles to see where it is point loading! 
As for the sails lasting as long if you believe that you belong in never never land with the fairies!
 The boom is better regarding the cracking but a downgrade as far as the clew track why oh why didnt they decide to keep it! oh yeah that would be proffit margin! 
I think if the manufacturer had spent the money resolving longstanding issues such as side deck cracking people would have been happier


Sounding a little bitter, there?
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 12 at 10:26pm
Regarding the sail changes, if there is minimal difference between the old and new how is it that at every open i have attended the top of the fleet are using a combi of new Jib and Old Main?
Probably using old mains  cos it's windy?New jibs 'cos the old ones are pastit?
 
By the way no more than 20 on average so that really worked in improving numbers didnt it? 
Numbers are not great, that is not unique to the 400. Picking windy weekends for the coastal opens was at best unlucky.
 
As for the carbon pole it will never work until they modify the aperture on the hull you only have to look at ally poles to see where it is point loading! 
 
It's not carbon, it is GRP according to the RS shop website. FAIL!
 
 
As for the sails lasting as long if you believe that you belong in never never land with the fairies!  
Pass!
 
 The boom is better regarding the cracking but a downgrade as far as the clew track why oh why didnt they decide to keep it!
Losing some mass from the end is less inertia in  a gybe. Some old booms crack around the outhaul slot. The boom is not cheap IMHO, but it does include mainsheet blocks and gooseneck, to be fair.
 
 
oh yeah that would be proffit margin! 
I think if the manufacturer had spent the money resolving longstanding issues such as side deck cracking people would have been happier
 
The hulls do get the odd cosmetic gel crack, but fixing that might well involve stiffening the whole hull, which might be a faster boat. Can of worms?
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 12 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by Jamesd

[QU

The square top main was pretty extreme, it looked good and the performance increase was extreme. Planing upwind is something than isnt really achieved in a 400 unless its 18+ knots, but the square top did make it happen in alot less. The larger kite was nice as well. 
I think for an RS401 these changes would have been great but it was a step to far to put it onto a fleet of 1000 boats, 90pc of which sail only at club level. 

The one thing that gets me, is why did the kite never get changed to a twin patch? surely that was one of the easier mods and most effective

 
We never saw the square top main, we did see the 'development boat' soundly spanked by HISC's Merlins on the water in their winter series results.
A genuine performance boost would have been interesting, more so than making the boat look like a Vago. Provided it still suited Him'n' Her teams of course.
 
I would suspect that the chute is a bit small for a twin patch kite?
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