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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 May 18 at 10:22am
Originally posted by Peaky

There are different ways of measuring popularity. I know it’s only one country, but I would hazard a guess that over the last 25 years (the ISO launched in 93 I think) asymmetric boats have outsold symmetric boats by an order of magnitude in the UK.

But as you said the UK is just one country, and therefore not very relevant. Neither is the USA, Australia, Germany or any other one country, since they all seem to be quite different from each other.

If we want to measure popularity by new boat sales of International classes, we see that syms are on top. Over a five year period to about 2016 or 17, the 470 outsold 49ers, 912 to 564. The 420 outsold 29ers, 1642 to 584 (not counting the US Club 420s). 

Outside the Olympic and Youth classes, the International adult's single-wire sym boats outsell the assy boats, with some 200 FDs, 505s and FDs sold in five years compared to 160 500s and B14s. After 20 years of an Olympic spot and all the effort put in by Laser, Topper, RS, Vanguard and Bethwaite there seems to be little reason to see why the skiff types should suddenly surge.

Hiking doublehanders with syms or no kite add another 927 boats, putting these unfashionable old boats close to the modern assy types in total numbers sold.

In singlehanders, conventional hikers are way in front (13400 boats sold in five years) even if we exclude the Youth boats (Opti, Tera, Topper, Byte, Zoom, Splash) and also the Sunfish since many of them are just beach toys. Modern high performance singlehanders (Moth, MPS) add 590 boats over the five years I counted, although the latest report shows a dramatic drop in Moth sales (from 150 to 65 per annum).

To be frank, these numbers worry me. The sport is not in good shape and the classes that some said were "the future of the sport" are being out-sold by old classes. We have been following a similar course since the "skiff craze" of the 1990s and it has not worked. We need some new thinking.




Edited by Chris 249 - 23 May 18 at 10:24am
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 18 at 10:31am
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by Peaky

why should the Olympic classes reflect what is popular at grass roots level
Because different sports test and reward a specific set of skills. It's these skills and test which define each sport. The Olympics seek to find the 'higher, stronger faster' for each of these popular sporting tests and reward them.  If the Olympics isn't reflecting the game being played at grass roots then it's because its carrying out different tests. As soon as it stop representing a game played worldwide it loses it's prestige, It becomes just a one off game contrived for TV. 

I'm happy for the boats selected to be more difficult than those chosen for grass roots sailing as long as the premise of the game remains relatable. In fact, sometimes I think it's better that their equipment is more difficult, then I can see them battling the same difficulties in 20 knots trying to gybe set the 49er as I do in my 200.

Which brings me back to my main gripe against the mixed team single hander, which by all indication will be two separate fleet events on two courses with collated points. It's just not a game I recognise in from sailing. It seems contrived and unfair. 
/\

Good points. Secondly, it seems that where the kit used in the "main event" is closer to the kit used by weekend competitors, the sport is more popular - compare cycling to car racing for example. The whole sport depends on the weekend warriors whether they are club racers, officials or instructors. Ignoring them or separating them from the Olympians would seem likely to end up in tears.

When Peaky raised the Tour he hit the nail on the head - the Tour uses bikes that are half as fast as the fastest bicycles (which are streamlined recumbents) but they are the same as the one that enormous numbers of people use in weekend competitions. There is a very direct link between club racers and cafe heroes and pros; in fact where I've raced Tour de France stage winners and world pro title winners and runner-ups turn up to local club races, using gear just like the weekenders. Why not follow a route that works so well, instead of the expensive and elitist model of car racing which sits about 30 spots lower on the list of participant sports?

The 470 was designed essentially as a "club" version of the elite racing boat of its day, the 505. It's not the sailing equivalent of a Dutch bike, it's the equivalent of a classic club-level road racing bike. The Laser was designed for a similar role, by three Olympians.

The idea that using "extreme" gear will attract spectators and spur more people to take up sailing seems to have been proven to be wrong. Olympic sailing ranks just as badly as it used to on TV, and the sport has not been re-invigorated by the new boats as people like Henderson and pundits claimed it would. Finally, the two major surveys on the sport indicate that extreme high performance kit, with all the crashes and complications it brings, is the sort of thing that turns people off sailing. 

Changing the Olympic boats has huge costs and any decision of that nature should surely be based on a lot of damn good evidence. One could say there is no apparent evidence to have the Games in "extreme" boats, and a significant amount of objective evidence why one should not. 


Edited by Chris 249 - 23 May 18 at 10:47am
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 18 at 11:16am
Originally posted by Chris 249

  


If we want to measure popularity by new boat sales of International classes, we see that syms are on top. Over a five year period to about 2016 or 17, the 470 outsold 49ers, 912 to 564. The 420 outsold 29ers, 1642 to 584 (not counting the US Club 420s). 

so asys are more than a quarter as popular in international classes according to those numbers, does that mean the the syms are dying of we have an overall fall in uptake year on year?


Originally posted by Chris 249

  

To be frank, these numbers worry me. The sport is not in good shape and the classes that some said were "the future of the sport" are being out-sold by old classes. We have been following a similar course since the "skiff craze" of the 1990s and it has not worked. We need some new thinking.


perhaps sailors are too tied up with nostalgia to move on?
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Posts: 189 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Fatboi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 18 at 11:31am
It is quite funny. There are arguments for and against all the classes. I have sailed a lot of different boats and have been in the top 5 at open/national level in many classes from GP14's, Solos, Int14's, RS400's and through to yachts but what I love about sailing and look for at events is close competition. 
If I am going blasting, then I would choose a int14 or maybe even an RS800 or D-One. Something I can go fast, send it around the place and that makes me smile, however the best events I have sailed in for the closeness of actual competition and boat on boat racing has been the slow one design boats -Solo, GP, Finn and RS200. Not much beats that, and I think that there needs to be a mix in the Olympics - tactical boat sailing as well as high performance thrills and spills showing the diversity of what you can do in our sport. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 18 at 11:37am
Originally posted by Chris 249

[QUOTE=mozzy] 
When Peaky raised the Tour he hit the nail on the head - the Tour uses bikes that are half as fast as the fastest bicycles (which are streamlined recumbents) but they are the same as the one that enormous numbers of people use in weekend competitions. There is a very direct link between club racers and cafe heroes and pros; in fact where I've raced Tour de France stage winners and world pro title winners and runner-ups turn up to local club races, using gear just like the weekenders.

I'm not sure it's as good an argument as it first sounds. All competitive bikes, from grass roots to elite cycling are held to the same rules. It's a universal box rule. It's not like there are lots of local grass roots 'classes' of bikes which the UCI is shifting it's elite rules to match to stay relevant.

One exception is UK time trialling (England wales mostly), which has a separate rule to the UCI, however as most people buy bikes from manufactures who need to serve the UCI legal market there aren't too many issues... however, Tour de France winners have been caught out using illegal kit in domestic competitions. 

Plus, recumbents wouldn't be faster on mountainous tours and would be incredibly dangerous in packs. Plus they would change how the game is played significantly regarding tactics. It's these factors which encourage the UCI to keep the box rules they have as much as it is to mirror what Fred Blogs is riding to work and back. 



Edited by mozzy - 23 May 18 at 11:44am
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 18 at 11:42am
Fatboi, agree if your looking for a good all round competition (and for my racing thats what i go for) then the spread of boat type and race type is what is needed, maybe WS held that ideal for the Olympics but now in this modern world do we need it?  Unless you're invested in the emotion of the competition it can be quite dull, crash and burn is perhaps the best way to "advertise" our sport, get the hook and then bring in the reality of it, a highlight reel is always more interesting....imho.
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 18 at 11:58am
Originally posted by Oli

Originally posted by Chris 249

  


If we want to measure popularity by new boat sales of International classes, we see that syms are on top. Over a five year period to about 2016 or 17, the 470 outsold 49ers, 912 to 564. The 420 outsold 29ers, 1642 to 584 (not counting the US Club 420s). 

so asys are more than a quarter as popular in international classes according to those numbers, does that mean the the syms are dying of we have an overall fall in uptake year on year?

That's in the Olympic and Youth classes, where the situation is distorted because ISAF gives the same number of youth and Olympic medals to 9ers as to the 420s/470s, which seem to be more popular generally.

If you reckon the assys are more popular than the figures I can find indicate, then you are welcome to back up your claim by doing some research like I did.


Originally posted by Chris 249

  

To be frank, these numbers worry me. The sport is not in good shape and the classes that some said were "the future of the sport" are being out-sold by old classes. We have been following a similar course since the "skiff craze" of the 1990s and it has not worked. We need some new thinking.


perhaps sailors are too tied up with nostalgia to move on?

Yes, but if we're going to look at psychological factors we have to be consistent and look at both sides. If we are going to start considering psychological factors like nostalgia as a reason why people are sticking to old boats, then we must logically also consider the psychological reasons why people may move to new ones, like being overly susceptible to hype, advertising and peer pressure, or wanting to feel superior to all the people who sail older classes. We can't prove whether decisions are being driven by nostalgia or by trying desperately to be hip, so perhaps we should ignore that area.

Perhaps instead we should simply respect our fellow sailors enough to think that they know what is fun for them? I've sailed with several guys who have won world titles in 18 Foot Skiffs and Junior Moths and moved to Lasers (or even a Mirror). Their decision to do that was not "tied up with nostalgia" - it was an intelligent decision in the circumstances, just as with the silver medallist who found that NS14s didn't work in Germany.

Thirdly, the apparent idea that nostalgia for dinghies is the problem ignores the fact that even where nostalgia for dinghies isn't a factor (like Sydney, where skiffs dominated for 90 years) the Skiffs have often been replaced by dinghies or have died away or dwindled. No matter whether there are Skiffs or dinghies, sailing is not doing well.

If it was only nostalgia that keeps people in slower boats, why would people sail RS800s instead of Formula 16s, A Class, F18s or Tornadoes?  If faster and newer craft are better, why would people sail foiler Moths or A Class cats instead of kitefoilers?  Obviously there is a lot more to it to it than nostalgia. 






Edited by Chris 249 - 23 May 18 at 12:58pm
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Posts: 189 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Fatboi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 18 at 11:58am
The main problem is that sailing is not really that interesting to watch....!! Unless you create a proper story, building on the characters and rivalry of the sailors and build it up to be a battle - Ainslie vs Sheidt and vs Jonas are about the only time that happens (That I can think of). That's what people buy into (And what the medal race was introduced to do, only problem is when the points are already decided). With that in mind, WS went to the extreme a few years ago and made the whole qualifying series count for 1 race and you took in your position as 1 race score and then the medal race was race 2. It was quite exciting but didn't reflect the consistency of a weeks sailing and was tough on the sailors.

Proper filming is definitely needed. The photos of the finns and 470's in Rio on the windy days was EPIC! I am not sure the 49ers would have even managed to race out in those conditions, so that is something that needs to be thought about. If they get the Mistral for 3 days for the 2024 games, the Nacra and 49er may not sail...
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 18 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by Fatboi

It is quite funny. There are arguments for and against all the classes. I have sailed a lot of different boats and have been in the top 5 at open/national level in many classes from GP14's, Solos, Int14's, RS400's and through to yachts but what I love about sailing and look for at events is close competition. 
If I am going blasting, then I would choose a int14 or maybe even an RS800 or D-One. Something I can go fast, send it around the place and that makes me smile, however the best events I have sailed in for the closeness of actual competition and boat on boat racing has been the slow one design boats -Solo, GP, Finn and RS200. Not much beats that, and I think that there needs to be a mix in the Olympics - tactical boat sailing as well as high performance thrills and spills showing the diversity of what you can do in our sport. 

Originally posted by Oli

Fatboi, agree if your looking for a good all round competition (and for my racing thats what i go for) then the spread of boat type and race type is what is needed, maybe WS held that ideal for the Olympics but now in this modern world do we need it?  Unless you're invested in the emotion of the competition it can be quite dull, crash and burn is perhaps the best way to "advertise" our sport, get the hook and then bring in the reality of it, a highlight reel is always more interesting....imho.

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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 18 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by Chris 249

[QUOTE=mozzy] 
When Peaky raised the Tour he hit the nail on the head - the Tour uses bikes that are half as fast as the fastest bicycles (which are streamlined recumbents) but they are the same as the one that enormous numbers of people use in weekend competitions. There is a very direct link between club racers and cafe heroes and pros; in fact where I've raced Tour de France stage winners and world pro title winners and runner-ups turn up to local club races, using gear just like the weekenders.

I'm not sure it's as good an argument as it first sounds. All competitive bikes, from grass roots to elite cycling are held to the same rules. It's a universal box rule. It's not like there are lots of local grass roots 'classes' of bikes which the UCI is shifting it's elite rules to match to stay relevant.

One exception is UK time trialling (England wales mostly), which has a separate rule to the UCI, however as most people buy bikes from manufactures who need to serve the UCI legal market there aren't too many issues... however, Tour de France winners have been caught out using illegal kit in domestic competitions. 

Plus, recumbents wouldn't be faster on mountainous tours and would be incredibly dangerous in packs. Plus they would change how the game is played significantly regarding tactics. It's these factors which encourage the UCI to keep the box rules they have as much as it is to mirror what Fred Blogs is riding to work and back. 


Trying not to monopolise the thread, so just quickly;

1 - the point is that, as you said "All competitive bikes, from grass roots to elite cycling are held to the same rules" which limit performance but make for very accessible gear, and that model works very well.

The Lugarno Charter and UCI rules give the spirit pretty clearly; "The features which have contributed to the world-wide development and spread of the bicycle are its extraordinary simplicity, cost-effectiveness and ease of use.....Bicycles and their accessories shall be of a type that is sold for use by anyone practising cycling as a sport. ...The use of equipment designed especially for the attainment of a particular performance (record or other) shall be not authorised....The bicycle must be accessible to all participants. ..."

That's very different from the situation in sailing, where there is lots of promotion of classes that are not sold "for use by anyone practising sailing as a sport" and are not "accessible to all participants" like a racing bicycle is.

2- Streamliners do mass races even in schoolkid races with few issues.  There are lots of flat races and flat stages where streamliners would fly away with a speed advantage of 40kmh or so, and the rules allow riders to change to specialised climbing bikes when they hit the big climbs. And yet the world's greatest annual sporting event (the Tour) and the Olympic events are held on much slower bikes.

No one's saying that we should adopt the UCI approach and make everyone sail Finns, Lasers or 470s, but surely there is a lot we can learn from looking at what is the most popular racing sport in most advanced economies. 



Edited by Chris 249 - 23 May 18 at 12:49pm
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