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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Demographic Changes
    Posted: 05 Feb 15 at 11:23pm
Save sailing from the Save Sailingers!
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 15 at 8:57am
Inaccessible
Elitist
Too Difficult(Complicated)to bother with anyway.

As it was then, so it is now, hence why boats like the Aero are exactly what's needed, bring on the Aero two hander or start building the 400 at the Aero factory.

Edited by iGRF - 06 Feb 15 at 8:57am
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 15 at 9:18am
Originally posted by iGRF

Inaccessible
Elitist
Too Difficult(Complicated)to bother with anyway.

As it was then, so it is now, hence why boats like the Aero are exactly what's needed, bring on the Aero two hander or start building the 400 at the Aero factory.

yep, here it is... great, what next?  

So we're now all supposed to jump ship from the boats 'we' sail and have invested time, money and resources to deliver great sailing in- boats like Solos, Phantoms, Lasers, Fireballs, Merlins etc and go buy something 'new'... on the premise that it might be ever so slightly more accessible and easier?

Evolution, not revolution... sailing can't afford the churn and frankly at 6 grand a pop, currently with no after market; I'll take my chances at converting a newbie into a club laser, then maybe get them to buy their own sail for it as their first step towards boat ownership and sociable racing.


Edited by turnturtle - 06 Feb 15 at 9:19am
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 15 at 9:30am
No you are not supposed to do anything, you're already sailors so have been 'saved' you can jump ships do what you like, but the 'you' that likes to continue to promote hideous complicated old junk like 505's, Fireballs, Merlins should all stfu, go do your own thing, but hey! we don't care, we don't want to know and we don't want you and your merry band of protectioneers manning the PY wall against new build and new designs, bugger off and die with your old classes and let the newcomers blossom rather than killing them at birth in order to protect your sadness.

RANT over.
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PeterG View Drop Down
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Posts: 823 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 15 at 9:33am
I'll take my chances at converting a newbie into a club laser, then maybe get them to buy their own sail for it as their first step towards boat ownership and sociable racing.

+1

Lasers are brilliant for people just getting into racing (if we overlook the 1-2 handed debate). They are cheap, fairly indestructible, easy to sail. But they reward improvement in technique and pretty much anywhere you will have a group of other Lasers to race against.

Many of those who stay interested will probably move on, some no doubt to the Aero, others to 2 handed, and other boats all together (both old and new designs), but for those who've just come through what is now the norm in terms of sailing tuition for adults - RYA certs a lot in single handers - an old Laser, or a club Laser (no doubt also old) is the perfect starting point.
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 15 at 9:55am
Originally posted by iGRF

No you are not supposed to do anything, you're already sailors so have been 'saved' you can jump ships do what you like, but the 'you' that likes to continue to promote hideous complicated old junk like 505's, Fireballs, Merlins should all stfu, go do your own thing, but hey! we don't care, we don't want to know and we don't want you and your merry band of protectioneers manning the PY wall against new build and new designs, bugger off and die with your old classes and let the newcomers blossom rather than killing them at birth in order to protect your sadness.

RANT over.

But THEY are doing their own thing though aren't they?  They have their own little PYAG to run THEIR racing handicaps.  They have THEIR own little section of forums and sailing media to talk n' share THEIR stuff.  

They run THEIR own little handicap events all winter long, which incidentally THEY seem to sell out.  Not to mention THEIR extensive programme of class regattas and race weeks in the milder months, and a full programme of open meeting circuits which bring more than single numbers to a start line.

All of which YOU are welcome to ignore and leave in its own little contracting bubble of perceived disharmony.  So THEY are over there, buggered off happily dieing (glass half empty of happily living) with their antique craft and weird and whacky customs.  

After all THEY are existentially crap at marketing themselves, and the sport in general, or so YOU would have us believe.  Therefore, I really don't see your point?  I can't see how THEY are impacting on YOU and your fellow newbies who demand this fresh and exciting approach to get their rocks off at the weekend.

I'm glad all these newbies you are talking about have options to go and race in this parallel universe you have created.  Perhaps though, you could tell us more about it?  Set up a website detailing the events, the riders and winners... the hot girls in bikinis it inevitably attracts?  (hey, it's a shallow world and sexy girls sell things...)  

Maybe a few of THEM could come across?  I know I'd be quite keen to come race in your Brave New World.   I got a taste for it at the NWF, no handicaps, no real rules, no 720s etc.just guys out racing around a mark and back.  I got so into it I actually found a competitive edge for the first time on the water in decades...   So fire away, what are YOU guys up to?  When's the next event YOU guys are putting on.  And oh, can I borrow a boat?  No, f**k it, show me the programme and I'll BUY a boat.  

But please, if a few newcomers want to get involved with what THEY are doing over there with their old sh*te boats ana spattering of new ones which actually seem to fit in; maybe because they actually look like boats for starters, and perhaps, just perhaps, they can see through the gear and see the quality of racing actually on offer, then who are YOU to tell the new 'THEY', they shouldn't? 


Edited by turnturtle - 06 Feb 15 at 9:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 15 at 10:06am
In Game Theory there are lots of examples where what is best for the individual is not best for the wider community. Given such dilemmas we nearly always take the selfish option. The only way to change the outcome is by changing the rules of the game so that the best interests of the individual and society are the same. Only the game organiser (the RYA) has the ability to do that.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 15 at 10:20am
I'm sure that the rotomoulded boats were the ones which were going to change sailing for ever, weren't they? And in one way they have, as most sailing centres now use them. But for racing at adult level, they are still frowned upon. Is this because they are too down market, or simply because they don't scale up to adult sizes well? If the latter, then I'm sure it is only a matter of time before the technology improves, and grf's new type of sailing will be in bouncy boats.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 15 at 10:35am
Originally posted by Rupert

I'm sure that the rotomoulded boats were the ones which were going to change sailing for ever, weren't they? And in one way they have, as most sailing centres now use them. But for racing at adult level, they are still frowned upon. Is this because they are too down market, or simply because they don't scale up to adult sizes well? If the latter, then I'm sure it is only a matter of time before the technology improves, and grf's new type of sailing will be in bouncy boats.


I think it's more to do with the fact they don't come supplied with a crane with which to lift them on and off the trailer. In fact I'm sure a case could be made to the health and safety executive to have them banned for public use.
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 15 at 10:55am
Originally posted by Rupert

I'm sure that the rotomoulded boats were the ones which were going to change sailing for ever, weren't they? And in one way they have, as most sailing centres now use them. But for racing at adult level, they are still frowned upon. Is this because they are too down market, or simply because they don't scale up to adult sizes well? If the latter, then I'm sure it is only a matter of time before the technology improves, and grf's new type of sailing will be in bouncy boats.

Maybe it is because for many of us it is about the quality of the product, the sailing experience and the pride of ownership?

I am off skiing next week, I shall pick up a pair of bog standard knackered old skis from the hire shop, because frankly I am not good enough to tell the difference, whereas if I were buying them I would pay an anal amount of detail and read all the reviews, and probably be influenced by the branding before making my purchase.

Actually I am lying ... I have read the reviews and am influenced by branding and have e-mailed the hire shop with my requirements, obviously the air tip technology and progressive tip camber, 84 waist width are going to make me look great all over the mountain! 
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