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Bellingforth View Drop Down
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Posts: 68 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bellingforth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Icon Class Association
    Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 12:26am
Well it's official now - the Icon is faster than either a Merlin or a Fireball without the complication of the extra sail or bits of string!

A few months ago I spoke to a very helpful chap at the RYA about the PN.  The only way the class could get even an experimental PN was via club returns - there was no way for the CA to provide extra info from any other sources.

So the good news is they've obviously received enough data to establish an experimental PN.  But I guess the majority of the data will either have come from Burghfield or Sailjiuce returns, most of which will be dominated by Mike L & Paul B who are both very good sailors and have beaten Merlins on several occasions.

As has been discussed elsewhere, there is no way of factoring in 'crew skill'.  When Mike L sails a Blaze at Burghfield in the 'fast handicap' fleet, he pretty much always wins.  Sailing an Icon against the same competition he doesn't win quite as much.  That would suggest that a PN of 1000/1005 is close but possibly a bit fast.  But where the Blaze results are diluted with other national returns, his Icon results probably constitute the majority of returns.

There is no way of short-cutting the system. so the only way to correct the system is to get more 'normal' people sailing Icons at clubs / events where results get fed into the PN-o-matic.

So if anyone wants to help out, please let me know :-)

Mike B.
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Posts: 284 		Post Options Post Options   Quote scotsfinn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 3:04am
Ok , as an average sailor I have held Merlins above 14kts, but below, ...  No chance can I beat them as prescribed by the the new handicap .... No chance! Hey but I'm a learner. ... I've only been dinghy sailing for 35 yrs plus. Guess I'll need to find another gear , a spinnaker or another class .... But what do the RYA know?
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 6:46am
In my club data I see something like a 5% improvement when someone replaces an old boat with a new one.

But honestly, that sounds about right to me.
A Tasar is 1018, an RS400 946.
You've gone longer waterline than both, and waterline is huge, because it makes the boat faster upwind as well as downwind.

In International Canoes the two sail one design was 905, the Asymettric, with a 20m2 kite is 870, and the class is expecting the number for the development boats with no spinnaker, but lighter weight and modern hull shapes to end up in the 870-880 region. So a really big kite is only worth 35 points on those boats, and lighter weight and modern hull design has nearly the same effect.

A certain 14ft class has a silly handkerchief instead of a kite, various restrictive rules on hull shape, dedicated water flow upsetters all over the hull and a weight problem.

So where on earth would you expect the number to be? Don't tell me only just faster than a Tasar with the extra waterline length and umpteen years development, because I'll just laugh at you. If a genuine handicap wasn't in the 970 region, even without the "all boats are new" effect I'd have to say that the design/development team had stuffed up, even allowing for the boat being slowed by the short batten mainsail.



Edited by JimC - 27 Feb 14 at 8:37am
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 9:14am

Morning Jim et al

It does not matter whether you laugh .. or cry really !  The current PN system is RESULTS based and not part of a general 'grand theory of everything' design formula.  Mind you it might be an interesting approach to play with.  Dan Holman kindly sent me his spreadsheet stuff a few years ago that was intended to predict PN's based on a series of design parameters.  As I said it is interesting comparative stuff but not really key in any records based approach. 

Whatever the starting 'experimental' point in time the numbers will rise reflect both the craft and the average crew skill ability of the emerging fleet ... but only over time.   Short term the number will be tough but we race because we enjoy Icon so much .. boat on boat and in mixed fleet .. yes whatever.   And we continue to race because we enjoy sailing Icon - the ultimate driver.

If the motivation was only a couple of extra coffee mugs now and then that is not why we do it -  there are other classes out there already that can assist you more easily with any compulsive mug gathering urges.   (aka 'CMG' syndrome by some or just as 'points tarts' by the less sympathetic)

More interesting is the fact that in 2012 'Sailjuice' assessed Icon as being around '990' ... a year later they revised their estimate and moved it UP to 1000.   My own club did something very similar, presumably based on real results.   I know I know.. before you start the standard lecture again we do know that Icon is quick, we think about 'Phantom Quick' overall, but this is all we can manage ourselves.  

And of course 'Scotsfinn' says he now only has 35 years experience ... so I quickly thought about my own .. gulp I've been racing dinghies for 48 years now and I was not 'oppi' fodder age then .. er  .. so moving on rapidly I have to say you might be right about the handicap, time will tell... we just need a few more 'juniors' with your superior skills to show us exactly how ! 

Come and see the Icon CA at the show .... and perhaps wonder how those 'old gits' manage to get around the race course at all .. ( So no more for now I must have my 'lie-down') 

Mike L.         





Edited by blaze720 - 27 Feb 14 at 9:24am
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 9:15am
The fundamental reason I wanted to put a kite on an Icon was to race against my pals in a merlin and we'd have probably done a deal where we raced scratch once the dust had settled and we'd beaten them a couple of times thanks to my tactical tidal genius

The ludicrous part of all this, is by the time it works through the system, the opportunity will be lost and any chance of building this class diminished, surely there is an appeal procedure, I keep asking the question, but who are these people, are there names, telephone numbers?

They should be made accountable for their actions to those of us outside of the 'inner national series sail juice knitting circle'.

A PY of 969 compared to the one time I raced against the Icon when it was 1020 and I was sailing the EPS off 1024 and I recall some instances of mixing it with Mike Lyons and splitting the Icons with my final result, so 969 doesn't just seem harsh, it almost smacks of commercial induced sabotage.

I'm going to try an find someone at the dinghy show to remonstrate with, they really do need a wake up call.

Edited by iGRF - 27 Feb 14 at 9:15am
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fdsailor View Drop Down
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Posts: 27 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fdsailor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 9:23am
Were all those SJ returns not done in lots of wind? From what I've seen of the Icon (admittedly from the back of the fleet in an old and crusty Merlin with hardware and software issues) it struggles a bit in light winds against both wood generation Canterbury Tales and of course the FRP ones. Wouldn't be surprised if that was reversed when the wind was up though, the boats are SOOOO different in concept that no single number system will ever compare them equitably.

I think the US portsmouth numbers used to have different numbers for different wind strengths, at least one of the FD sailors over there had a list for a number of different dinghies at different windstrengths. What always amazed me was how much faster the FD got as the wind gets up - all boats do to a certain extent, but the FD speed increase was massive compared with the rest.

Not to say that multi-number systems are better, but any single number system will not get it right, especially with a limited (windy?!) data set.

The 1000ish that people have suggested would, IMHO, probably be right generally for Largs, maybe a tad less (990?) once Martin has the benefit of having raced other Icons. For a single number, there will probably be a small windspeed range (10-14 knots?) where Icons and Merlins are very close, but below it will be Merlins, above the Icon I think. So depending on the conditions you sail in, somebody will likely be peeved off and denounce the system. The people at Largs are pretty switched on so I'm sure they will make the necessary adjustments...

Maybe all the club returns actually did say 1000, but LSC put Martin through as a foiling Moth??!!! ;-)
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Posts: 27 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fdsailor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 9:28am
And when I say 'somebody will likely be peeved off' I don't mean Martin (he's a gent), I mean just people generally. 
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 9:32am
Originally posted by blaze720

Dan Holman kindly sent me his spreadsheet stuff a few years ago
that was intended to predict PN's based on a series of design parameters. 



Eh? A spreadsheet already exists?

Care to share it?
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fdsailor View Drop Down
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Posts: 27 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fdsailor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 9:32am
I know this has been hacked to death but clubs can (should, and do) set their own numbers. That's the system. It's just that they also send them in for some kind of agglomeration which pumps out a single standard number which is necessarily imperfect in many ways. If you think this is bad, have a look at NHC! LOL
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Posts: 2003 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 9:36am
I'm fairly sure the SJ series isn't used as part of the calcs.... with regards the ICON, at 969 it makes it too quick to be allowed on the some of the close, confined waters around here.  Which is a real shame, one of its overriding impressions it left on me at the FOM was that it seemed a lovely boat to be sailing somewhere 'Broxbourne like'.

So yes, it does rather set the conspiracy, anti-competition alarm bells off... but then that's paranoia and a sense of frustration that one boat I would have potentially bought when my kids were a bit bigger is now stricken from the list.

disappointing...
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