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Dinghies in 2020

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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 31 Mar 09 at 10:11am
Originally posted by G.R.F.

we learned years ago the centreboard should be further back

Boards rarely have jibs.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 09 at 10:25am

I must admit I was suprised, when I looked from underneath, just how forward the board looks. However, it balances just fine, so must be in the right place. Bethwaite's first book explains that the wing mast needs the board further forward because of the better flow in the luff area.

And of course, I have a jib.

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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 09 at 10:36am
Bethwaite Bethwaite Bethwaite...

Doesn't anyone think for themselves, the guy's an idiot.

Isn't he the one responsible for 49ers? and the rest of the skiff dross that
even the worlds elite can't sail beyond 20 kts and a four foot chop (As found
in Sydney Harbour).
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 09 at 10:38am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by G.R.F.

we learned years ago the centreboard
should be further back

Boards rarely have jibs.


Irrelevant.

Move the whole lot back, as long as the collective centre of effort
matches the centre of lateral resistance.....

Edited by G.R.F.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 09 at 11:10am

But then the rudder is closer to the centreboard, which isn't fast, hence some classes resorting to gantrys.

Is it just possible that dinghies and boards work rather differently, so comparing them every time a picture of a boat is put up is rather futile?  After 120 or more years of development, dinghy designers know what they are doing, in the main.

Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 09 at 11:24am

Bethwaite didn't design the boat in the picture - he hasn't designed an NS14 for over 30 years.  A modern NS14 hull is much more slippery than, say a 505, RS200 or Tasar. Over 2,000 NS14s have been built, to dozens of different designs, so they should have the board in the right place by now!

There is something aesthetically pleasing about having the rig a long way aft, much like a long bonnet on a car, but I'm not sure that there is any performance benefit, and it makes the cockpit smaller.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 09 at 11:51am
Originally posted by damp_freddie


feel old when someone says the L4000 is an "older sailors boat"!!a lot of
old designs are going to die out with their sailors- those left just have to
erm, live with it. Product Life Cycle.Sailing One Design has to compete
with various winter skiing/snowboarding -all year round now -, mountain
biking, kite boarding etc  in the place for eaking a bit of adrenalin out of
teenagers and young adults.Not to mention the couch potatoe play
station-generation.Boats have to be fast, light, simple to rig and tweak.


But is there a "product life cycle" in racing dinghies? Maybe dinghies are
one of the (many???) exceptions to the idea of a life cycle?

The oldest dinghy One Designs ever created in the world are still racing,
almost 120 years after they were created. The oldest International
development dinghy class ever created is still racing, about 125 years
after it had its first international contest . The oldest International one
design dinghy class ever created attracts hundreds of competitors, over
90 years after it was designed. The most popular dinghy classes are 60
and 40 years old.

When just about all of the original classes from the dawn of the sport still
exist, and the most popular classes of all are so old, maybe the truth is
that dinghy sailing doesn't follow the "rules"?

And while mountain biking is strong, is that because it's a fairly new
adrenalin sport or because you can get into it cheaply and do some
singletrack cruising? Are the couch potatoes really going to go from
sitting on the coach, to hitting the piss on a skiff type? Are they actually
physically adventurous? Arguably they may be LESS physically
adventurous than earlier generations and therefore more easily scared off
sports.

Are kite numbers all that strong, and how many kiters got into it from
windsurfing when that sport chased the "new is always better" mindset
and became such a shadow of its former self?




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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 09 at 12:10pm
Design should always be for the better.

With what is known about sail, hulls and performance it should be
possible to make stuff that even idiots can use and go really fast in.

Bringing the power (that's the sailey bit) back reduces the wetted area as
the hull lifts onto the plane, the reason those silly foil things go fast up to
a point is simply because they remove ALL the wetted planing area. They
then run into greater friction because they are submersed, which I guess
is what the Guy from Weymouth is trying for by developing a planing foil.
But for the real world unless they can be made to retractinto the hull for
launch/recovery they're not on for a while yet.

Taking that Blaze again because it's a known boat shaped device. If that
had it's centreboard enlarged and moved aft, along with the mast, hang
the boom and rudder over the back if necessary, that would be faster, its
got a rocker that would react to it well and a bigger plate would sort the
windward issues and as for the old potatoe about waterline length up
wind, there's always you, you're portable, move forward a bit in the light
stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 09 at 12:27pm
Grumpf;

As Peaky says, the NS is a very slippery hull and it's got little or no
Bethwaite influence. And the Northies/Tasar etc balance very well. As
Rupert mentions, boards and boats can be different; the way boards
balance (especially with raked rigs, which alters the picture) doesn't come
into it. If you took pumping out of the equation the NS would arguably be
quicker than a Raceboard.

And has board racing become much more popular since boards started
moving the centreboard back? Maybe that restricts tacking speed, which
may (arguably) reduce the importance of tactics, and therefore makes
racing less interesting for many people?





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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 09 at 1:06pm
That dinghy just made the illustration.
Imho boats with the mast to forward are rangeless, impractical.

Let me use this shot of my boat.





There's a good chunk of boat ahead of the mast, and the CB case is
amidships, it is the singularly most 'balanced' feel of anything I've ever
sailed, not that that list is particularly long, but includes:-
RS200,400,500,800,Iso, MPS, 470, L3000, various Hobie things, Lasers
Toppers etc.
Because there is ample boat back and front of the power source.

Which means it can be used from 0 -30 knots with ease in seas ranging
from mirror to Mast High..

Because it's designed correctly in the first place.

Something lacking in your neck of the woods.

Edited by G.R.F.
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