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GybeFunny View Drop Down
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Posts: 403 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GybeFunny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Top dog
    Posted: 02 Sep 11 at 11:00am
That is a very tricky situation. Does the RRS not allow for any other forms of redress rather than average points?
I agree that tactical sailing is the name of the game and Taxi did nothing wrong, what does appear wrong is what JimC said in that one boat got 1 bad result and the other got 2 through no fault of their own. It will be interesting to see how that one pans out....
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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 11 at 11:02am
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by jeffers

I was disappointed when i saw the Merlin result too. Clearly the best sailor did not win the week and was only denied by (in my view) unsportsmanlike conduct.
 
I know it is within the rules and it takes a lot of skill to keep someone pinned down (and we were not objecting when Ben did it to Scheidt to win the Olympics) but it does leave a bad taste in the mouth.....

I don't see it as unsportsmanlike conduct at all.
'Taxi' played the hand that was dealt him, to the max of his ability within the rules.

Tactical sailing is in the game, it is not just a drag race.
We should be careful about making allegations of 'unsportsmanlike', that hurts.

Frankly, the effect of the average redress was entirely predictable.
If any criticism should be made, that is wherewe should be looking.
Were the race team not given the resources to avoid the mistake?
How can we avoid such mistakes?
Do we need better guidelines for redress?

Both Taxi and Geoff Carveth are great helms.
Geoff, being an Endeavour Trophy winner does not need the Merlin title to be regarded as among the best, but I do hope he will be competing for it next year.

Absolutely 1000% Right, its part of the game.  The idea of racing is to win, as long as you are within the rules then what Taxi did is completely fair.  Its actually complementary to Geoff, as he knew he is such a good sailor that he had to sail him down the fleet as any result above (was it 30th ??) would mean Geoff wins the title.  Which is pretty much odds on when you have Geoff Carveth in the fleet.  Saying its un-sportsman like is a little disingenuous and unfair.  As i Understand it (after speaking with Taxi) Geoff pinned him self down the pin end of the line which made it easier for taxi to shut the door on him.
 
I say well sailed, Taxi is obviously a man on top of his game, with 4 nationals titles.  A third at the Solo's.  Not a bad shout at all.

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Contender 541 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1402 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Contender 541 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 11 at 11:09am
Sorry to be thick - only been sailing for 25 years - why Taxi?
When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss

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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 11 at 11:16am
I am not sure whay Andy is called Taxi, i am sure someone that knows him better then I could tell you that. 
 
I am really not sure why more large fleets like the Merlins don't use a gate start.  It works so well for most of the big fleets round the world, clean with massive tactical choices to be made.

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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 11 at 11:20am
Originally posted by GybeFunny

That is a very tricky situation. Does the RRS not allow for any other forms of redress rather than average points?
......

Yes it does.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 11 at 11:39am
Dunno, I must say it makes me uneasy...

I have no problem with one boat sailing another boat down the fleet to give them a bad result - at least in a class race. If, say, a 49er sailed a Solo to the back of the fleet I'm not sure I'd be so comfortable about that. I am really not so sure about sailing a boat down the fleet to give them *two* bad results. What it means is that the redress suddely stops being effective and I'm not sure that's right.

If we look at the RRS in A10 we have

A10 GUIDANCE ON REDRESS
If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boat’s
score for a race, it is advised to consider scoring her
(a) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05
to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races in the
series except the race in question;
(b) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05
to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races before the
race in question; or
(c) points based on the position of the boat in the race at the time
of the incident that justified redress.


Option a gives the result we've seen.
Option b reverses the places.

Normally I'd say that option a is fairer, especially early in a series, but in this case... I think its hard to say that the eventual effect of the redress was to
make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected
. In the event the second place boat was severely disadvantaged by the redress.

Edited by JimC - 02 Sep 11 at 11:42am
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ob1 View Drop Down
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Posts: 72 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ob1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 11 at 11:45am
one thing about the Guidance in A10 is that although it gives some options to consider, it doesn't actually guve any guidance at all on which option to take in certain circumstances or explain how to decide which option to take.
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Neptune View Drop Down
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Posts: 1314 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 11 at 11:56am
I'd actually like to see a solo sail a 49er down the fleet though - that would be an awesome level of skill required ;-)
Musto Skiff and Solo sailor
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 11 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by ob1

one thing about the Guidance in A10 is that although it gives some options to consider, it doesn't actually guve any guidance at all on which option to take in certain circumstances or explain how to decide which option to take.

There's a bit more in the International Judges manual I think, but circumstances vary so widely that I think doing so would be nearly impossible...

It would be very foolish of me to suggest what the PC at the event was thinking, but had I been on the PC I'd have awarded average points without a second thought, and then been quite horrified when the sailing down the fleet incident occurred. Goodness only knows what I would have done, or whether the PC *can* do anything...

We use average points quite extensively at my club so people aren't disadvantaged in a series if they are on race duty and had concerned me a bit that it gives an incentive to *not* sail a race if the conditions are wildly unsuitable for your boat and you have discards to burn, but this business of sailing someone down the fleet to stuff up their average points is a whole new level of distortion which just hadn't occurred to me. There might be a case for excluding the last race from average points scores, not only for this reason but also for the opposite factor that turnouts are often low in the last race of a Champs series, especially if the major places are decided, which means that average points could be reduced by a result a sailor would have struggled to repeat in other races...

The other thing that's disturbing about this is, assuming that the average points were in the normal "exclude DNC" form, Carveth would easily have won the Championship if he simply hadn't sailed the last race. I'm not at all sure its a good thing for 37th/59 to effectively be a worse score than a DNC...


Edited by JimC - 02 Sep 11 at 12:26pm
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AlexM View Drop Down
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Posts: 857 		Post Options Post Options   Quote AlexM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 11 at 12:43pm
For our OOD we give ave. of your counting results, would that of been better? (not sure it's possible but just a theory)
i.e.
1,1, RDG 1.75,1,4 = 8.75
 
Alex
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