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Extreme 40 crash decision

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    Posted: 26 Sep 11 at 6:08pm
Scooby Simon- the days are long gone when a collision was needed to prove that a rule had been broken. Once A passed beyong head to wind she was required to sail in such a way that R had noneed to take avoiding action. Once R needed to take avoiding action A had broken rule 13.

Once A had reached a close hauled course she became ROW boat and was required to give R the space needed, in the existing conditions, to manoeuvre promptly in a seamanlike way so that A would not need to take avoiding action. At that moment (not before) A did not meet this requirement. A broke rule 15.

In both these instances A is DSQ, even if there was no contact. If you want a simple guideline - if you oblige another boat to do an emergency manouevre to avoid you, you have almost certainly broken a rule.

The only debate is whether R could have done more to to avoid a collision. Having initially borne away when A broke rule 13, it is questionable whether any seamanlike manoeuvre could have avoided contact when A broke rule 15.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 11 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Originally posted by I luv Wight

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

 
 But IF R in this case had taken avoiding action correctly (and thus no collision) then A would not hve been DSQ.


But A would still get a penalty / DSQ for tacking too close.

 
Why?  they have completed their tack; are now on Stbd and thus R needs to avoid the Stbd boat; once A has completed her tack, R becomes burdended......
 
 According to the beginning of this thread, R had started avoiding action before A had completed her tack, so whether the bearaway was crap or not, A had tacked too close.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 11 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by I luv Wight

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

 
 But IF R in this case had taken avoiding action correctly (and thus no collision) then A would not hve been DSQ.


But A would still get a penalty / DSQ for tacking too close.

 
Why?  they have completed their tack; are now on Stbd and thus R needs to avoid the Stbd boat; once A has completed her tack, R becomes burdended......
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 11 at 4:47pm
If you tack onto starboard right in front of someone, then surely the onus is on you to ensure there is no collision? The boat behind doesn't know you are going to tack, and even if you tell them, they don't have to start avoiding you till the tack is completed. That is all pretty straight forward. I'm pretty sure thinking time is allowed for in all this, which, at the speed these boats are going at, is rather further than it is in my Lightning.
 
As far as I can see, if you tacked so close that a rushed crap bearaway is enough to make the difference between colliding and not, then you've tacked too close.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote I luv Wight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 11 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by Scooby_simon

 
 But IF R in this case had taken avoiding action correctly (and thus no collision) then A would not hve been DSQ.


But A would still get a penalty / DSQ for tacking too close.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 11 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Scooby_simon


Does the tacking boat have to assume that the other boat(s) will NOT take appropite action.

The tacking boat has to assume that if they break a rule the right of way boat may not succeed in taking sufficient avoiding action in time to avoid a collision.
 
But IF R in this case had taken avoiding action correctly (and thus no collision) then A would not hve been DSQ.
 
So; to take this further with with some examples.....
 
1, A tacks and sails away; R does not change heading; we KNOW nowt here.
2, A tacks, is sailing on correct heading(completed tack), R takes NO avoiding action once A ROW boat; collision, R DSQ.
3, A tacks, R collides; nowhere for R to go; A DSQ.
 
My assumption is NOW that as A you cannot assume that R will take APPROPIATE action, and thus you cannot tack on the same "lane" as a following boat as you cannot assume they will take any avoiding action........
 
True????  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 11 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by Scooby_simon


Does the tacking boat have to assume that the other boat(s) will NOT take appropite action.

The tacking boat has to assume that if they break a rule the right of way boat may not succeed in taking sufficient avoiding action in time to avoid a collision.

Edited by JimC - 26 Sep 11 at 3:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ob1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 11 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Originally posted by Brass

There's no doubt that R could have made 'more of an effort to bear away'.

The question is, why should anyone think she was obliged to make 'more of an effort'?
 
 
My question is should boats EXPECT other boats to take APPROPIATE action.
 
I still hold that if R had taken the appropiate action this collision would not have happened....
 
Does the tacking boat have to assume that the other boat(s) will NOT take appropite action.
 
Simon, I hear your question (and your pain) which I will leave to others to answer
 
But it can't be a sensible requirement of the rules to have to even begin to guess what boats might do if we assume they will not take appropiate action.  e.g., (and just to illustrate the argument) would we have to assume and allow for the option of deliberate ramming?


Edited by ob1 - 26 Sep 11 at 3:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 11 at 3:06pm
Originally posted by Brass

There's no doubt that R could have made 'more of an effort to bear away'.

The question is, why should anyone think she was obliged to make 'more of an effort'?
 
 
My question is should boats EXPECT other boats to take APPROPIATE action.
 
I still hold that if R had taken the appropiate action this collision would not have happened....
 
Does the tacking boat have to assume that the other boat(s) will NOT take appropite action.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote I luv Wight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 11 at 3:04pm
But lessons were learned... later on in the week, the exact same positioning occurred, but the boat ahead and slightly to leeward waited to tack until the other boat had tacked on the layline ( and 'lost' a place. )

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